The Lazy Label And A Reframe

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Dear listeners, there are a lot of children being called unmotivated right now. Lazy, difficult, not trying hard enough. And a lot of parents who are exhausted, frustrated, and quietly wondering like if they are doing something wrong. But what if the child is not lacking motivation or the effort? What if they are lacking skills they were simply never taught? And what if the frustration in the room from the parent, from the teacher, from the child themselves is not a sign of failure, but a signal that something different is needed. Good to think about, right? I believe uh all of you are if even if it's not all, but most of you are nodding your heads, yes, yes, it's it it happens, right? So, yes, so today's guest has been answering the that question for over 20 years, and she has the personal experience to match the professional one.

Meet Dr Noreen Russell

SPEAKER_01 1:14

So, hey dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Healthy Mind, Healthy Life, where we look honestly at what it means for families to feel well, function well, and grow well together. I'm your host, Avik, and I'm really, really glad that all of you are here today. And my guest today holds a PhD from Bowling Green State University with a focus on psychology and education. She is the founder of Wrestle Coaching for Student and uh largest student coaching practice in the United States, the creator of connected coaching and the author of Asking the Right Questions Before, During, and After Your Child's ADHD diagnosis. She is also the mother of two neurologically apical children, and she knows this from the inside. So I'll not take much of a tank. Let's get started. Welcome our guest, Dr. Noreen Ressel. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I'm so thrilled to be here. This is a fantastic show, and I love the diversity of topics that you, you know, choose to focus on. And I love that through it all is this, you know, weaving in of what's healthy? How do we be healthy? Healthy in our minds, healthy in our families. So thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Amazing. Great to hear from you. I mean, it's it's it's really the uh motivation, I'd say. And thank you so much for uh listening to our shows and being on our show today. Uh, I'm I'm really, really glad.

Parenting Complex Gifted Kids

SPEAKER_01 2:45

And um, so so uh Dr. Noreen, like um, before we get into the framework and the coaching model, I want to start with uh the personal dimension. Like uh you raised two complex children whose diagnosis span autism, mood disorders, ADHD, uh giftedness, and learning differences. What are the yes? So, what did that experience teach you about struggling students that your academic training alone never could have an efficient shit?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah. You know, I think that my older one is my son. His name is Ethan. I have permission to talk about him. He is turning 18 soon. And what I never realized before I had Ethan was how incredibly complex a young child could be with so much potential. I didn't realize, for example, that a student who was so highly gifted as Ethan was reading at a college level in kindergarten could also be so challenged by ADHD and mood disorders that it was hard for them to get through the day. I had not been exposed to things like that in my training. And so I was just really surprised at how complex kids with ADHD, autism, and anxiety can be and how difficult daily life can be for them. And that's really where my journey started. Um, before that, I had worked in nonprofit, I had taught at a few different universities, but trying to figure out where were the supports for me as Ethan's mom, and where were the supports for Ethan as this two-year-old, three-year-old, five-year-old, that's that's really what started the practice.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

That's really, really agree, so I have to say. And um, I mean it definitely it's uh the the name giftedness is something, yes, they are gifted, definitely. And uh from there, because when I when I um uh talk about this topics, uh I definitely love to bring uh both the sides uh where uh we have uh both the uh areas that we can

The Real Skills Behind Homework

SPEAKER_01 5:21

discuss. So I want to uh bring one perspective that is the misconception part. Like uh the reframe at the center of your work is is that struggling students are not lacking ability or motivation, they are lacking skills, they were never taught. So I mean that sounds simple, but it changes everything about how a parent sees their children or child. So I want to ask you like exactly. I I mean, I just wanted to ask you about the uh what is the misconception that keeps most parents stuck in frustration rather than moving into the um understanding.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Right. So a common one starting an elementary school is my child is lazy, my child is unmotivated, they don't do their homework, they won't do their math fact sheets, they won't do their 20 minutes of reading, right? That's the kind of homework we're talking about in elementary school. And there are students who will not start that process independently or automatically. And very quickly, in many families and schools, what starts to happen is oh, that child doesn't care, that child's lazy, they would rather be gaming, they would rather be playing outside. And what we don't see is actually the most accurate explanation, which is that child has low skills when it comes to task initiation, because that's really what that is, right? It's task initiation. It's getting started on the one page of math facts or the 20 minutes of reading. And instead of addressing it from an executive functioning task initiation problem, we start to approach it from a motivation, from a character, from a, oh, this child is lazy, right? Well, that doesn't help anybody to get motivated. And second, it doesn't help teach the child the skill they need. And this carries on all the way through schooling. So we get to those teenage years, and students have trouble getting started. They may have trouble finishing things, right? Homework is now more complicated. Maybe they have to write a thousand-word essay. They come up with a topic, they turn in an outline, and when it comes to actually writing, they get frustrated. This too is another skill, this skill of task completion, right? Oh, how do I get something done that I'm a little bored with that's not keeping my interest, that seems tedious? Task completion is the executive functioning skill there. And we don't teach these kinds of skills in school. We give the assignment, we say when it's due, we say where the resources are, we tell you where you can research. But the process of managing yourself through this is not taught, right? Another one that frequently is a problem, especially for high schoolers, is time management. I'll tell you a quick personal story about this. My 16-year-old recently had to have some oral dental work. And she had extensions from her high school and her college professors. She's in a joint program that she could turn in the work that was due on the day of her surgery and the day after her surgery late. And I said to her, you know, you really should be getting that work done. And she said, Mom, I have an extension. I said, Yes, Lola, you have an extension, but you know what's going to happen after this week? You're going to get the next week's work. And so if you're feeling well enough to get this work done, get it done. Because you don't have an extension for the next one. And now this is my very, very bright 16-year-old who's going to pursue computer science in college. And she was like, oh, right. It just hadn't occurred to her because we don't teach and talk about these executive functioning skills of planning, prioritizing, time management, task initiation, task completion, impulse control. We kind of expect that kids are going to pick them up through osmosis. And the ones who don't, who tend to also have a learning disability or autism or ADHD, are the ones who are left lagging, not because they don't have the intellectual ability to do the work, but because they don't have this other set of skills called executive functioning.

unknown 10:06

True.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Exactly. And and the word lazy, like you mentioned in the beginning, uh, because it comes up so often with these kids and um it causes so much damage. But what is actually happening in a child who looks lazy from the outside? And uh what are they experiencing internally that the behavior is trying to communicate?

What “Lazy” Feels Like Inside

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Yeah. Inside, a couple of different things can be going on. The child with ADHD can be dysregulated, they can be distracted, right? They can be hyperfocused on something else. Um, and what we know about ADHD is this is a neurodevelopmental disorder. This isn't a true child who's choosing to be preoccupied with airplanes or animals during class time. This is a child whose brain is wired differently. And so what's going on inside that child initially in the beginning grades of school is they're thinking about other things. Now, unfortunately, what happens over the course of time is that child, because they get negative feedback, you're not focused. If you would only try harder, you're capable of this, you're not putting your all into your work, right? They start to get negative feedback from this from the school. And a couple of things happen, both of which are equally bad. First, they check out from school, they become less connected to school. And we know that that school connection is important for students to feel safe and to be committed to the goal of graduation. So that decrease in school connection is happening. The other thing that's decreasing is the students' self-esteem and the students' self-efficacy. So, right, if you or I went to work every day and someone said to us, you need to focus on something else, you're acting lazy, you're disrespecting me, we wouldn't feel like going to work. We for sure would not feel like going to work. And so that's why when parents come to us, and third, we're working on that student's skills. How does it work for you to get started? There are a thousand ways, right? There are a thousand tricks and tips about task initiation. The beauty of coaching is we're gonna work with you to find the technique that works for you. We're gonna practice that with you until it becomes part of your daily routine.

Self Regulation And Connected Coaching

SPEAKER_01 13:32

So um here I'd love to ask you about the root causes, like ADHD, anxiety, um, follow-through issues. These often travel together and they often get treated as separate problems. So, what do you see as the underlying thread that connects them? Like what is actually going on in the um executive system or executive function system of a complex kid?

unknown 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

If we can share, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

It's such an important question you're asking. And um, I really want to point out to your listeners that when we have more than one of these things going on at the same time, which is more frequently than not the case, right? Two-thirds of kids with ADHD also have another diagnosis, a comorbid diagnosis. So that might be anxiety, might be learning differences, might be autism. Okay. When we look at autism, okay, 50 to 70 percent of kids with autism also have ADHD. So these things they kind of travel in packs, if you will. And so underlying all of it, what is consistent across the board is there is generally some delay in executive functioning, skill development, and some delay in social and emotional development. Where parents get, I think, um confused, perhaps, is they'll have a child who's very, very bright, right, who scores well on standardized tests, who absolutely can do the work. You know, it's not the doing of the homework. It's the self-regulation that is required to be productive at school. And it's that self-regulation that is dependent upon executive functioning, social and emotional skills, and mental health. And so when you ask me, kind of what does it all boil down to, you know, it all boils down to self-regulation. And making that more complicated is some days we as human beings are just better at self-regulating than others. We've all had days where we're like, it's a small thing, but it just really got to me, right? Those are our days when our capacity for self-regulation is low, you know. Oh, I got caught in the rain and it's the worst thing that ever happened. On the other hand, if you've got a day when you are full, you've eaten well, you've slept well, you're in touch with the people who care about you, you might get caught in the middle of a huge thunderstorm with no umbrella and dance through the rain, walk, uh, dance through the rain singing, right? And so self-regulation isn't this even pot that we can draw on every day. It comes and it goes, you know. Some days we feel great, some days we don't feel great. But all of this boils down to where are we at with self-regulation? And that's what we try so hard and are really very successful at in our connected coaching method. We don't become the homework police, we don't become the tutor, right? We're trying to help each and every student that we work with figure out, okay, where do you get stuck? Where's the pain point? Is it getting started on things? Is it getting distracted by things? Is it being able to sit and do homework for three hours, right? What's what's the pain point? And then we can suggest lots and lots of strategies, right? The student chooses the strategy and we help them implement that and really track that. Are you getting four days of homework done now with this strategy that you're trying of marking it off on the whiteboard or having your alarm go off every night at 8 p.m.? That's what coaching is all about is finding your, you know, customized strategy that's going to help you change the behavior that is giving you a problem in life.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Understand. Yep. So um, okay. I mean it it I mean, what you were pointing to is that so much of what looks like a behavior problem is actually a nervous system problem. And uh a child who is overwhelmed or who has been in a chronic state of low-level fear about their own um competence and whose reactions are perfectly logical given the amount of stress they are carrying. Bad reframe is obviously not just the I'd say compassionate, but it's accurate. So uh great, thank you so much for

Setbacks, Path Making, And Hope

SPEAKER_01 18:39

sharing that. And uh also, uh like complex kids uh don't follow linear progress. A family makes real gains, and the child is more regulated, the homework is getting done, the relationship is warmer, and then a hard semester arrives, right? And we used to get tensed for that. So from semester I got to I remember those days. So, or or or uh a transition or an adolescence, and it can feel like they are back at the beginning. So, how do you help families sustain the gains and stay connected through the inevitable setbacks? What do you say?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah. I think one of the most important messages students get at our practice and parents get it as well, is we're not just taking one step forward at a time, right? We're still carving your path. Think about a student who has ADHD and autism, right? We're still figuring out what their path need to look like, what supports do they need? You know, I have a son who has severe ADHD, moderate to severe autism. He's gifted, he is a phenomenal reader and writer, he has a learning disability in math. I can tell you that path for him is not carved out, right? And so we try to say to him, you're carving the path. You're in essence, you're making the path. Think about this. You know, we're making our way through the wild west and we're having to make a path. This person's on your team, this person's on your team, I'm on your team, your dad's on your team, but we don't have a path to follow. And so sometimes we might take a step to the left, sometimes we might take a step to the right, sometimes we might fall over a log. For him, this child kept tripping over, if you will, metaphorically speaking, the math entry-level um placement test for community college for dual enrollment. My son had to take that test four times to get a passing score. And we all were struggling with what do we do? How do we approach this differently? This feels like a failure after we've spent so much time on math tutoring. But we were all in agreement. You've got to get up, we've got to try something else, and you've got to take it again. Um, and so I think just normalizing the process of there are going to be steps to the left, there are gonna be steps to the right, there's gonna be something that feels like a step back, but the vision is out in front of you. Have faith, have hope, have love, right? And keep going. When I look back on both my kids, and they're 16 and 18 now, I think, oh, you know, there were times when we made missteps. My daughter went to a school that was not the right fit for her. My son also stayed at a school that was not the right fit for him. We started homeschooling in sixth grade. I thought, well, that's not a step I ever saw myself taking, right? But we just kept looking ahead. What's the vision? I knew I wanted psychologically healthy kids who were getting a rigorous high school education. Those were my goals. And so as long as you have that in front of you, then you just keep going, despite the times when you feel like, well, that was not the right thing to happen. Or that's not I wish would have happened. Or feels like we fell down a hole here. Yeah. Get up, get back to the vision. What do you want? I knew for me, I wanted kids who were psychologically healthy with a good, strong, solid high school education. And that's what drove me.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Exactly. Exactly.

Be A Scientist Plus Resources

SPEAKER_01 23:04

So um and uh Dr. You have to give one advice to the listeners today, what that will be.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

I would say be a scientist. Be a scientist. Listen and observe your children. Figure out what their strengths are, what their values are, what they care about. React less, contain yourself more, be a scientist and get to know your student and meet them where they're at. And then gently together start down the road to their future.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Amazing. Amazing. And uh if listeners want to connect with you, what will be the great medium to connect?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Sure, we'd love to hear from you. First, um, we'd love for you to come and visit us on our website. That's Russellcoaching.com. Russell has two S's and two L's, or you can just Google my name, Noreen Russell. And one of the things I want to say there is that we have a blog that's all about executive functioning and has helpful hints for every single one of the executive functioning skills. We've we've also got um a hundred or so podcasts listed on there that I've been a guest on, or my own podcast, which is breaking out of the box. So lots and lots of resources there. And then um for your listeners, we are offering 20% off the first three months of coaching. And so if you feel like the services that we provide, academic connected coaching might be helpful for your student, um, just reference Russell20, and you'll be able to receive 20% off the first three months of coaching when you come and join us. And there is a free consultation call you can schedule at any time.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Amazing, amazing, really, really great. So um, Delismas, what I'll do is I'll put all the links, details, everything into the show notes uh for your easy reference so that you can easily reach out to Dr. Nareena and um you can connect, discuss uh in more details. And um, with this, uh uh this is this is the wrap for today's episode on Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. And I'd say if this conversation gave you a different way to see your child or yourself as a parent, please sit with that. It's not a small thing, a shift in how we see is where everything else begins. So, uh, as I mentioned, Dr. Noreen's book and uh Russell coaching details will be there into the show notes. And if you know a family who is in the middle of this and needs to hear a different story about their child, please share this episode with them. And with this, hope this is your host, Awake, and this is Healthy Man Healthy Life. Your child is not the problem, and neither are you. Take care of yourselves and of each other. See you next time. Thank you so much.