Here is something that stopped me in my tracks when I first came across it. Roughly 90% of your serotonin, the chemical most people associate with happiness and mood is not made in your brain. It is made in your gut. Your gut at the same place that processes your lunch is also in a very real sense processing your emotions. Welcome back to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I'm your host, Yosef, and today we are going somewhere that I think is going to genuinely shift how you think about your own well-being. And for that, my guest today is Dr. Sean Talbot, a nutritional biochemist with a PhD from Ruthgers, an entrepreneurship background from MIT, and over two decades spent at the intersection of gut, the brain, and mental wellness. He's the author of the book Mental Fitness, a multi-time iron triathlet and a developer of neuroseutical products that have generated over a billion dollars in global sales. He calls himself a psycho nutritionist. And today's he's going to explain exactly why what is happening in your gut might be the most important factor in how you feel in your mind. Sean, welcome to the show. I have been looking forward to this for so long.

Oh, me too. Yeah, this is this is great. And I loved your introduction. You said it perfectly about how the gut processes not just your lunch, but it processes your emotions too. It really is. We call the gut the second brain because it has so much impact on what happens in your first brain. So people recognize serotonin as the neurotransmitter of happiness. If you don't have enough serotonin, you're probably depressed. If you have enough, you feel, you know, you have a good mood. But we can do we can do that for all the neurotransmitters. So, you know, dopamine, which is the neurotransmitter of motivation and energy, about 70% of that is made in the gut. And then we can go down the whole list of neurotransmitters. We can talk about GABA, which is the body's primary relaxing neurotransmitter, the neurotransmitter that helps us to calm down when we're when we're under stress. Probably about half of that is made in your gut. And then, you know, melatonin to help us sleep, about 80% of that. Oxytocin, which is a hormone that helps us connect with other people and feel empathy. A large portion of that is made in the gut. So, you know, your gut is really the source of all of these neurochemicals that that improve how we feel, how we perform, how we show up in a stressful situation, our level of creativity, this idea of having a second brain that most people aren't even aware of, I think really, you know, really is just a like blows your mind when you start thinking about it.

Or the people who are very new to this, can you explain what are neurotransmitters? What does that mean in a very simple language?

Yeah, so yeah, so neurotransmitters are just very simply signaling molecules. So some neurotransmitters will signal happiness, some will signal mental focus, some will signal motivation, like dopamine we just we just mentioned. Just think of them as signals in your body. And so that's important for people to understand that because those signals can be in balance and we feel good, or they can be out of balance and we feel bad. And so I like people to understand that that that's biochemistry at work. And so if you feel sad and tired and you and not motivated, it's not your fault, right? It's not, it's not anything that's wrong with you, except that you have this biochemical imbalance and there's ways that we can improve that. And because so many of those neurotransmitters come from your gut, we can use nutrition, we can use herbs, we can use spices to feed the right the right materials to our gut so that we produce the right level of those neurotransmitters, so we feel our best and perform our best.

Okay. And so if the gut and the brain are in constant conversation, what causes that conversation to go wrong? Like, how do those signals get out of the balance? Because I think a lot of people are living in a state of imbalance and they don't know it.

Right, exactly. Um, so so food is probably the most direct way that they can be in balance or out of balance. So if people are eating uh a diet that's high in processed food, high in sugar, low in fiber, low in fruits and vegetables, that's the first most direct thing that can change what's happening in the gut, right? So in in our gut, we have, you know, 10 trillion, 20 trillion, 30 trillion bacteria. And those bacteria are largely responsible, what we call your microbiome. Those bacteria are largely responsible for helping us make these neurotransmitters. So if we're eating a low fiber diet, high processed food diet, we're basically starving those bacteria so that they can't make those neurotransmitters. So if you're eating a fast food diet, processed food diet, that's the first place that you're damaging and imbalancing all of these neurotransmitters. The other, the other place that's really important is this is the stress that we're under. Because if these two brains are talking to each other, the brain in your gut and the brain in your head, if our brain in our head is sending stress signals into the rest of our body, there's good research to show that people who are under chronic stress will actually grow more bad bacteria. So instead of the bacteria making serotonin so we're happy, it will make these compounds called cytokines, which are inflammatory cytokines, inflammatory signals that can make us sad. So, in that situation, our stressful brain is telling our stressful gut to produce compounds that make us less happy and more sad. So it's a very, it's a vicious cycle that we get into where we have stress in the world and we have stress from our diet. And when we put those two things together, it really puts us in a bad situation.

Wow. And Dr. Shun, are there any telltale symptoms that we can look at and and we can, you know, conclude that there is something problem in either in our gut or the whole conversation?

Yeah, that's a great question because the biggest the the biggest question people will have when they hear me talk about this is they'll say, huh. Well, I don't really have any gut problems, you know. I don't have, I'm not constipated, or I don't have diarrhea, or I don't have stomach aches, or I'm not bloated, right? They're thinking that if their gut is out of balance, they have to have some sort of a gut symptom. And that's not always the case. Sometimes people will have those symptoms. Um, but you can just feel, you know, probably the biggest symptom that will tell somebody that they have a have an imbalance between their gut and their brain is if they're tired during the day and they're wired at night. So that idea of being exhausted, fatigued, um, no energy, no motivation during the day, and you're just, you know, you're drinking coffee and having energy drinks and things like that just to get you through the day. But then at night, when you you should be tired, you should fall right asleep because you've been so tired all day. But if your head starts going and you feel a little bit irritable and a little bit agitated, so that's what I mean by wired at night, you can't relax. That's a really good signal that you have this gut brain imbalance. Because what we're supposed to be, we're supposed to be energetic and motivated and focused during the day. And then at night, we're supposed to be able to relax and wind down and get a good night's sleep and fall asleep readily and wake up the next morning with good energy and do it again. And when I describe that, a lot of people go, I've I've not felt like that for years. I don't know if I've ever felt like that because so many people are tired in the day and then wired and irritable at night. So that's a that's a very um uh hallmark sign that your gut and brain aren't talking to each other efficiently. I see.

And I think that is really a sobering experience, I would say. Because if the modern lifestyle created this imbalance, it also means it changes in how we live, how we live, and how the solutions have to be worked upon. Because uh there's a phrase, I guess, modern problems require modern solutions. Right?

Yes, yes. Uh I agree with that, but I also will say that modern problems, like what I just described, being tired and wired, sometimes require old-fashioned solutions. And what I mean by that is that a lot of the therapies that I use are um whole food diets. You know, we'll get people to say, you know what, instead of eating this modern fast food, you know, standard American diet is usually how we call it in science, right? That that that diet that's just high in processed foods, instead of eating that, why don't you try to eat more like your grandmother ate? Why don't you eat more fruits and vegetables? Why don't you grow a garden of your own so you have those those foods available? Why don't you eat instead of something that comes out of a box ready to eat, why don't you go to the produce section of your grocery store and buy the fruits and vegetables and prepare them yourselves? Because we know that if you eat more of those traditional style diets, that's associated with better neurotransmitters, better gut health, better mood, better energy levels, et cetera, et cetera. Okay.

And I want to ask about one of the most common misconceptions around this topic. Because gut health has become a very trendy, trendy phrase, I would say. And with that comes a lot of noise and a lot of products and a lot of promises. So, what are the biggest mistakes people make when they think they are taking care of their gut health?

And the No, no, I think I think that's a great question because gut health has become this big buzzword, you know, in the in the health industry, you know. And so everything that I said about the gut and the brain, you know, changing how we feel and how we perform, that's all true. That's all based on really good science. But lots of people will hear that and they'll go, oh, so I guess I just need to get a probiotic supplement. If I get a probiotic supplement, which is this, you know, healthy bacteria, that's going to do something good in my gut and that'll solve all my problems. And that's a little oversimplification of thinking about how this all works. There, there certainly are research-validated, you know, science-proven strains of probiotics that can help with various things. You know, I've I've actually studied some of them. There are specific strains that you can give to somebody that will solve their depression or improve their motivation or help them focus better or help them sleep better or lower their stress levels, right? There are those strains out there, but you have to get the right strain. You have to take it at the right level. You have to sometimes combine it with other biotics, like, you know, a probiotic and a prebiotic. So it gets a little complicated and people have to do their, have to do their research to make sure they're choosing the right strains. But I'll tell you this: the companies that use the right strains, they will tell you this is the strain we're using and this is why, and here's the research. If you can't find that information readily, then you probably don't want that product because they're not using the right strains.

I see. And particularly, does good and uh all these items, yogurt, et cetera, et cetera, aren't they helpful?

They can be helpful. Yeah, not all of them are helpful. So I'm I'm an advocate of the supplement industry, right? I think that there's a lot of good supplements that are based on really good research, but there's more stuff that's out there that is not based on research, that is just a lot of hype that's not going to help anybody. So it really is unfortunately, it's up to the to the consumer to make sure that they're asking the questions to say if they are interested in a product that does gut brain axis, then to to ask the company, say, well, what kind of research do you have on this ingredient or this ingredient? Why did you choose this probiotic instead of another one? You know, I've formulated products for lots of companies, and I will I will create a whole scientific dossier to say, here's why this ingredient, here's why this ingredient, this is what this one does, this is what that one does. And every every company should have that, but uh not not very many do.

Dr. Sean, I am personally a very big uh I believe in the idea of food first. Like a good, healthy diet will be able to solve most of my problem. So, where do supplement genuinely fit in? And how do you help someone figure it out that they will be useful for you or not?

Yeah, that's it, that's that's where I am too. So as a as a nutritional biochemist, I'm food first. I want people to try to solve their diet because that really that honestly, if you can move from a fast food processed food diet to more of a whole food diet, then you're you're gonna solve 90% of the problems that we're talking about. Um so, and and and by that I mean, you know, you don't have to eat a perfect diet. You just have to eat more fruits and vegetables, you have to get more fiber, you have to get more fermented foods, and you have to get more of these plant compounds called flavonoids, which are things that, you know, flavonoids make blueberries blue and they make, you know, turmeric yellow, like the like those colors are indicative of the phytonutrients of the flavonoids. So, you know, if you do that, you're gonna solve a lot of these problems. And then you can add a supplement on top of that to maximize your benefits, to sort of like dial things in. Um, so so that's the way I prefer people to do it. There's another use case though, which is if you have somebody who is tired and wired, like we described, or their mood is low, or their stress is high, or their motivation is low. You can sometimes, if you have a science-based supplement, you could have them use the supplement first, but only with this with this one caveat, which is you're using the supplement not to solve all the problems, but you're using the supplement to help you feel better enough to start making some of those healthy lifestyle choices. So if you can lower somebody's stress with a good, good supplement, then maybe they're in a in a place where they can go, oh, okay, now I'm a little bit less stressed, I'm a little more motivated, I'm a little better mood. Maybe now I'd be more inclined to make a salad for dinner instead of having a fast food hamburger, right? So, like it's that kind of an idea. If you can get that person to feel better, it will help them make those healthy dietary choices. And then that starts the process going in the right direction.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And you know, the difference between what is possible in theory and what is practical for a real person living in life. Exactly. That is very that is very important. Exactly.

Yep.

And you have held the title of world's fittest CEO, and you are a multi-time Iron Man triathlete. And you clearly practice what you preach, I can see that. And but I am curious about sustainability, not for an elite athlete, but for a normal person carrying real life stress, demanding job, a family, not much, not much time. How do you help someone maintain the microbiome habits they build without it becoming, you know, another stress, another part of their life they're not performing well yet?

Right. I am so glad you asked that question because there's so many people like me, right? Scientists who who you know do research in this area and write books and tell people what to do, and people listen to us. And sometimes you come away from that going, oh my gosh, I feel like I just got another, I feel like I got a homework assignment, right? I I'm stressed out, I don't feel good, I don't have any motivation, and now he now I have to do all these different things to get better again. That's that sounds ridiculous. And I'm very much like a real world kind of a scientist, you know, which is of all these things that we talk about, fiber and fermented foods and flavonoids and eat more fruits and vegetables and look for the right probiotic strain and you know, all that kind of stuff. I like people to say, where can I start? Pick one of those. Don't think that you need to do all of those, but think of it more like, think of it more like a menu to say, here are the 10 or 12 things that we know will work. Pick your favorite one or pick the one you think is gonna work best for you. So if you do that, then you're gonna get a little bit of benefit and then you'll feel better, and then you'll feel like you have more bandwidth, if you will. So then you can add another thing later and then another thing, and then another thing. And then pretty soon, once I, you know, when I work with clients one-on-one, we'll start slow, we'll see benefits accruing over time. And then, you know, after a few months or a couple of years, they've become a different person who is just the kind of person that does these things automatically. They're automatically eating more fruits and vegetables. They're not forcing themselves to do it, they're automatically going and having a workout or moving their body, they're not somebody who is saying, Oh, I hate to exercise, and now I'm gonna force myself to. But it's a it's a progressive process of a little like baby steps, doing little things progressively to get better and better.

You see. Dr. Sean, if people want to connect with you or want to learn more about your work, where can they do that?

Yeah, the the best place to find me is at the name of my company, which is Three Waves Wellness. So it's the number three, waveswellness.com. And I have I have educational programs there. I have links out to some of the products that I like. Uh, I have a lot of a lot of information that people can that people can look at.

Perfect. And to everyone listening, all these links are in the show notes. So just go and check those out. Dr. Sean, is there any last message that you want to leave us with?

I think the last message would be that that, you know, it if we can understand that we have these two brains and the second brain, the brain in our gut, that that that with our microbiome and the production of all these neurotransmitters, it's something that we can choose to change at every single meal. So anytime you eat anything or drink anything, you're choosing what we are feeding those bacteria in our gut, and how is that gonna send signals to our brain? At every single meal, we have the opportunity to take ourselves in a good direction or a bad direction. And I hope that people will think about that and they'll go, all right, I'm gonna make a choice here to take myself in a good direction, and I'll feel better because of that.

Wow. Sean, thank you so much for making the signs feel human and for giving our listeners a completely new way to look at something they thought they understood, and for reminding us that sometimes the most powerful place to start healing is not the one we we would have expected.

Exactly. Thank you very much. I enjoyed our conversation.

And to everyone listening, if something in today's conversation made you pause and think differently about how your body and your mind are connected, that pause is worth something. Take it seriously. Start somewhere small. I'm Yusuf, and this has been Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and we'll see you in the next episode. Until then, take care of yourselves, all of yourself.