We were taught to manage, to perform, to push through. And for a lot of men especially, the message growing up was even clearer. Keep it together. Don't let it show. Be strong. But then here's what that creates not strength, disconnection. And disconnection has a way of showing up everywhere. And how we lead, and how we love, and how we argue. And in the long silences, we cannot explain. Well, today we are talking about what it takes to come back. Welcome back, listeners to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life, where we have real grounded conversations about what it means to feel well, lead well, and live with intention. I'm Sana, your host, and I'm so, so excited for this conversation, listeners, because my guest today, Trevor Stevenson, he's a conscious leadership coach. He's co-founder of Conscious Lead and someone who has made it his work to help people and especially men close the gap between how they are actually feeling and how they are showing up in the world. Today we are exploring the emotional layer that most of us skip and why learning to read your own emotions might be the most important skill nobody has ever taught you. So, Trevor, welcome to the show and I'm I'm really honored having you here with us.

Such a pleasure, Sana. Thank you for the opportunity to share this important message and for that lovely intro.

Thank you so much, Trevor. Thank you. And it is kind of very uh interesting and surprising to see that yes, we have been taught how to perform, how to do well, how to kind of, you know, earn that respect and trust externally. But in internally, what's happening inside us, how our thoughts, emotions, they're kind of, you know, people say that, you know, they shape our reality. I mean, those are the aspects, especially when it comes to I think men, um, I think still considered a taboo in there, you know, because this portrayal that men always need to tough it out, talking about your feelings or emotions, it makes you look soft or vulnerable or weak. I think that's that's uh kind of that gray space or that low-hanging fruit that people normally do not want to talk about.

Yeah, exactly. And I and I love what you're sharing, Sonia, as well. I like that you describe as low-hanging fruit, because I think it's also such an opportunity that's right there before us. The unfortunate part, of course, is that we've gone decades of our growth and conditioning and development without those uh skills, and actually counter to it, as you've alluded to, we've we've been told to ignore or repress or avoid uh showing those emotions and thus feeling those emotions. And so as connections are developed, that it there's a large part of the the critical ingredients missing. And we see a lot of that happening then in corporations and in marriages and parenting, where that is that missing ingredient. And when we are asked, especially by our wives or by our business coach, to be able to open up and understand those emotions and express them in healthy ways, uh, we we we don't know how, because we have been conditioned in a way to push them down or away. And and and now it it's a real both a challenge to name them, but that's a learned skill. But the the bigger challenge is our level of comfort, the fear of showing emotion. As you've described here, it it we we've developed a mindset of of that being a softness or or weakness that or something that detracts from our uh strength and leadership.

True, true. Uh okay, Trevor, let's let's move on to, I mean, before we begin with the exploration around, you know, the core topic, um, I would I would love to know what brought you here. Like was there a specific event or maybe a phase or a season of of you know uh realizations, you know, like when where where you actually realized that emotional awareness wasn't just a nice idea, but something that actually changed things for you.

Yes. Sarah, there was a there were a few phases. I mean, there was the uh initial upbringing on a big farm where it was a pretty hard life, and that's that's the conditioning towards um repressed emotions. And so that was that learned um approach in the formative years, and it wasn't an intentional, oh, I need to go out and learn about my emotions, but I did want to go out and learn about myself and the world. And so I started traveling at about 18 years old, and ended up with the fortunate experience of being surrounded by a lot of uh sort of free-spirited women who weren't settled into the idea of uh a sort of a stagnant state or conditioned way that is uh immovable. And so I was encouraged to start exploring this other side that I wasn't aware of. Uh, and so it was a real dance at those early years in my 20s of learning about myself and learning about different ways of uh expressing what was alive inside me and reading a lot of books, uh, you know, the early day fables that uh helped me understand that there was this uh inner wisdom that could be drawn on. And so as I traveled the world and I learned more about people and about myself, it it became that that inner dance of sometimes I was able to express that way, and I was still very reactive and related to my my upbringing. And so when there were things that didn't align, I was frustrated, I could be quite quick to judge and anger and things like that. And and then there was a big uh, you know, marriage was great, and then kids came along and business and financial strain and things like that. And that's when uh stuff got very real because I I reverted quickly to my upbringing of that hardcore farmer mentality because things were hard. And so what I knew how to do in those times is go head down and just get her done the way you've described earlier. You know, we just push through and make it happen. And with my marriage and my um parenting relationship and my business and financial life on the line, I I wasn't I wasn't going to uh go down lightly. And so I I I went harder, which actually made it harder. It it pushed me further away from my wife, it pushed staff away, it pushed my children away. And and and there came uh a moment of reckoning where my wife said, okay, enough. I I can't I can't live with you this way. Uh something needs to change. And so that's when I uh started receiving coaching uh that was at a much deeper level than the coaching that I was used to. And that was about this conscious leadership, non-harming conscious leadership, and recognizing my my coach really helped me understand the harm that I was living with that uh was was deeply suppressed. And the harm then that is was reciprocally being created for those around me in the way that I was showing up. And so that was a real light bulb moment around 2012 and and since then, just the continued growth, you know, the work with my wife and business partner, um, to to grow into this and really recognize the conditioned ways that limit my ability to be well and lead well. And so those are still things that uh you know still come up that I work on every day and that I get to share uh with and then especially with with the men that I work with.

I mean, first of all, I really appreciate Trevor because uh it takes a lot of uh courage, and I keep on repeating this because I find this a very innate quality of very few people who can share their um toughest or maybe the weakest or sometimes maybe the darkest moments and phases of their lives with courage and at the same time vulnerability. Uh, because we often tend to, you know, um either pin the blame onto the circumstances or the events or the people, uh, without even thinking, okay, how was I reacting at that time? How what kind of state of mind I was in at that time, maybe what could be the probable reasons that I behaved during those moments or during those events. So I really, really appreciate how openly you did that.

Yeah, thank you. And it, you know, it it can be uh yeah, I I feel so blessed because this is my work. This is, you know, I don't know if my wife and I would still be married if this wasn't the work that we did in the world, you know, if we were running a a widget company kind of thing. Um but we're we're kind of sworn to this this work, and so we practice it at home and in our lives. Um and it I I can do consider it a real blessing. And that's why I have such an empathy for, again, the men especially, never having learned this, and then to be faced with this. It's like, okay, you need to start um sharing your emotions and showing up in ways that hurt less, um, or or our relationships over. And and guys just we we don't know how to do that, you know, we don't know how to uh express in those ways, and so it comes out in all sorts of maladaptive ways. And it's not that we're not being nice and and kind and things like that. We're we we love being the provider and working hard, but when it comes to emotional connection, uh we we struggle.

Sure. Yeah, thank you for the perfect segue. And yes, there's this assumption a lot of people carry, uh, men in particular, that emotions are something you either have under control or you don't, you know, like it's a switch. And from a perspective of women as well, uh we often say, and once again, kind of a disclaimer, I'm not generalizing anything, especially for women, but um the way women express emotions, it's different. The way men express their emotions, it's very different. That's what I I feel. You know, sometimes as women, we kind of I wouldn't say fail, but kind of becomes very um difficult to you know understand uh how men express their emotions. I think there's a lot of factors playing uh their role uh into that, biologically or maybe socially, conditioning and you know, sometimes the stigma around masculinity. So um, yes, I'm also curious, Trevor, that you know, uh especially for men, where do you think that belief comes from and why does it keep getting passed on even you know when we know that intellectually it doesn't really work?

Oh yeah, great question. And that is kind of the million-dollar question of and and I I I see it for the the groups of well, the individuals that I connect with and the groups that I work with to to open up to this is such a deep-rooted fear because we don't like not having the answers. We don't like not being able to figure it out and solve it. And this is such a complex one for us. And uh the thought of getting it wrong or just just not having the language. It's a complete new language. And so when I work with guys, and I, you know, one of the questions that I'll ask is like, when when that happened, how did you feel? And it was the same for me when my coach was asking me. Uh and I we would uh we'll automatically go to our thinking and how we process it and what's going on in our head related to it. And that's where you were sharing earlier about the externalizing, you know, well, my wife didn't do this, or she doesn't do this anymore, or my kids are showing up in this way, or the economy did that, or uh it's someone else's uh fault that I'm showing up this way, and so we externalize. And the question is only how are you feeling? And uh that is one of the questions that um is really difficult for for people in general to answer. Like you said, women are um conditioned earlier that emotions are okay, and you know, that they they can can express those, they can cry, uh, and actually it's encouraged uh to be able to be connected and supported emotionally. Um and so where when when we as men think that we we can't do something or we don't know how to do something, and we feel uh lack of competence in it, first of all, we avoid it. And second of all, we uh when when it is held up as a mirror for us, we um we we tend to uh kind of turtle and and hide from it. And so what I see though as well that is incredibly beautiful is if we just have that moment of courage to kind of say, I don't know, I need help. Uh you know, we're we're bad enough for saying we need help lifting something or building something, but when it comes to this, it's it's doubly difficult to say we need help understanding and expressing our emotions and and building a better relationship at home or in in the office. So yeah, we're up against a lot of uh conditioned ways. Uh, I would love to see the education, and I believe the education system is shifting very slowly towards syllabus for uh boys and men, young men. Um, but we're certainly uh groomed to know our, and you were speaking to this earlier as well, Sana, that um, you know, we're we're taught all sorts of stuff, but not this, you know. We we understand now coming out, we have our calculus and algebra and chemistry and biology and history and maybe some languages, and uh but but there was no program, no course, no lesson on emotional intelligence and emotional regulation and things like that. And so when when boys express their emotions when it comes out as anger or something, it it's either encouraged, like, oh boys will be boys, or it is um, you know, we we are punished for it, and you know, now you're you're expelled from school or you have detention or something like that, but there's no support to understand what was going on inside of you that led you to that reactive uh moment.

Yeah, yeah. Makes sense, makes sense, Jaguar makes sense. And I think uh that cost it it tends to be invisible for a long time. Um like it's not allowed, it's it's just in inside it's uh shaping everything. And I think what you are pointing to is that this is not a personal feeling, it's like this uh cultural inheritance, and it definitely this reframe definitely matters.

Yeah, great point. And and it's cross-cultural, which is the really unfortunate part. Uh, and and I think to different degrees, most certainly. But by and large, and and I think some of the challenging things are there there are traditions, ancient traditions that had rites of passage things that are also lacking. And so a lot of boys, especially in sort of the Western world, um, don't even have have that, that independence of of thought and leadership. And so we end up with a lot of ego and posturing and armor and masks and things because it's it's the same as we try to you know scale in the the business world without the true confidence or uh grow our marriage without that true confidence or parenting. And nobody's ever taught us these things. So there's this, you know, unwritten rule that we should just know how to do all of these things. And if we don't, then um, you know, don't show it, the fake it till you make it kind of mentality. But but that leads to a lot of inner turmoil, and that that has to go somewhere, you know, that conflict comes out of us in unhealthy ways.

True, true. And um I I know we're short on time, uh Trevor, but emotional awareness, conscious communication, doing the inner work. I mean, it's not a one-time breakthrough. Um people make progress, something would happen, and then you know that old pattern kicks in. Or maybe they're right back to where they started. So, what what do you say to someone who feels like you know they keep falling back? And and is there a way to measure progress in this kind of work?

Oh, that that that's such an important statement, Sana. Um, you know, I I had the uh call, our weekly call with the fundamental group of guys last night. And it's really beautiful because there's guys in that group who have been there over two years uh since inception, and there are guys who are quite new. And as we're going through some of these practices and uh conversations and reflections, it's it's at that time when we look back uh at some of the things that we're working on now, and we can really celebrate how we have changed, um, how we have been so reactive uh for for so many decades. And first of all, unconsciously, and then at some point through the support of, well, you know, whether it was this this group that we're in and working on this stuff, or whether it was something else that brought the awareness to us, we became aware of this and and we either chose to stay the same and recede to the our our current way, but it it's hard to go back because it it's like you say, or the saying goes, you know, if we if we know better, do better, and it you can't unsee the the impact. And so if we choose to work on these things, then it will improve. It's it's like anything. Uh, you know, learning to write code or learning to ride a bike or this, learning to have honest conversations, uh, even sharing that I don't know how to deal with this. And so that is really what it takes. So we can improve, absolutely. It's neuroplasticity, it's about recognizing a triggering moment and choosing how we want to show up, which means to get to that level of awareness, we need to pause, we need to create calm within us and uh sort of soothe that um that conditioned reactivity that will take us to anger or fear or resentment. And then we can get curious with what is really going on and what we need in that moment and what the underlying emotions are trying to tell us, instead of pushing those emotions away, embracing them as data points and say, Oh, it's because I just had a a need for connection or flow and support or something, you know. And so, yes. Absolutely, we can practice, we can see the difference. The the tangible aspect of it uh often comes uh in in hindsight, and we say, Wow, I'm I'm no longer reactive to that thing, or I'm much less reactive. Uh, and I've seen that journey so much within myself. And then we start to see when we look at the relationships that we have, and we say, Wow, you know, I've the the turnover of my most important employees has reduced. Or my wife and I are having more beautiful moments and connection and real conversations about things. Uh, and and I think that's a a big part of the uh awareness also is that we have to realize that um things can things can get more uncomfortable, more disorganized, um, and and feel worse once we start addressing these things. And so preparing ourselves for that and that everything isn't because currently we're living in a bit of a uh bubble and it's a bit of a facade, this relationship. And a lot of guys realize that there's something missing and they don't know how to name it or put their finger on it. And and women too, right? I think they have a greater sense of what they want, but quite often as well, um, we feel stuck or just uncomfortably comfortable in the relationships that we have. And um, so we're more afraid to rock the boat and move from that, even though it's it's not really serving us or fulfilling us. But if we have the courage to enter into that and the desire and willingness to see it through, then it always gets better. It always gets better if we have the courage to uh address it and the the wisdom and support to work on it.

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it's safe to say that you know the marker isn't the uh it's it's not the perfection, how perfectly you are doing it. I think it's more about how how quickly uh we we come back. And I think obviously it's just a more human way to measure growth. Um, and I think that is something I I think a lot of people definitely need to hear.

Yeah, it's it's a journey, absolutely. And I say this to the guys all the time. You know, we've got 30, 40, 50, 60 years of conditioning, doing it one way. Don't think for a moment that you're going to become aware of this in a in a workshop, in a book, in a conference, and all of a sudden be great at this. It's we're we're rewiring the brain. And the those uh neural pathways are deeply grooved into toward reactivity, uh, especially in uh situations that are so reflective of how we were raised. And so, you know, it's not a deep psychology thing, but it it's so valuable to understand from where this has come within us. And then you can almost smile, it's like, oh, okay, that's just you know, that's coming up because uh, you know, this used to happen at home. You know, this is how my dad would react, or this is how my mom showed love. Um but that you know isn't the way that I want to be showing up now, and so that's okay. They did the best they could, and I I know something that I want to work on, and I'm gonna choose over and over and over again. It's like healthy eating, it's like going to the gym, it's like taking care of all these other aspects of our health.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Trevor, before we wrap up, if our uh listeners they would further now they would like to connect and um also explore the work that you are doing, whether it's leadership or whether it's family or around men's mental health, or how how they can reach out to you?

Uh the website is always great, consciouslead.life. Um, I'd love to connect on LinkedIn and and have just more of these real conversations with people about what's going on and uh what sort of things help. I'm at Trevor Bryce Stevenson. That's B-R-Y-C-E in the middle of Trevor Stevenson. Uh, Instagram is fun road to freedom because we might as well have some fun along the way because it's a long road. So don't don't wait to enjoy the journey.

I love that line. Super. Yes, listeners. I love all the links mentioned in the show notes. So yeah, I'll just refer to them, find them along with this episode. And uh Trevor, thank you. Thank you so much. Uh you you really brought honesty, and you know, I think uh there, I mean, without any of the armor that this topic usually attracts, I think that matters more than you know. So yeah, thank you so much.

Sarah, thank you. You're such a great uh and thoughtful interviewer. So I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you to all the listeners out there. To everyone who showed up for this today, thank you for listening. And if something landed for you, sit with it. You don't have to have it figured out immediately. You just have to be willing to stay curious about what's happening inside you because that's where all it begins. This is Healthy Man, Healthy Life. Share this episode with someone who needs it and take care of yourself, and I'll be back soon with another episode. Thank you so much.