Welcome back, listeners, to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life, the show where we talk about real, usable tools for living and working in a way that doesn't quite drain you. I am Sana and listeners. Today, well, think about this. I mean, we most of us start the day with the best intentions. We sit down, we open the laptop, we tell ourselves, yeah, today's the day, I'll focus, you know, it's gonna it's gonna go all good. And then somewhere between the third tab and the fourth notification or the call, we look up and realize, goodness, money is gone. And we are not entirely sure what we did with it. Uh we we we blame ourselves, we we call it laziness, procrastination, or uh poor planning. Um we just just give me a minute. I'm getting a call. I'm so sorry. Oh, divorce. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, just take it from where I uh paused. Yes, we call it a willpower problem. But what if it was never really about the willpower? Why focus, the kind that actually feels good, was never meant to be done alone. So, yes, that's exactly what we are going to talk about today. And to help me with that, I have my guest. So she's the founder and CEO of Flown, a deep work platform built around the radical idea that focus is easier when we do it together. Before Flown, Alicia spent over a decade building skin links into a global tech company. And after she stepped away, she went looking for the spaces and rituals that would actually let humans do their best thinking. And what she found became her next mission. So let's explore what happened and what exactly does all this mean. And let's welcome our guest, Alicia Navarro. Alicia, welcome to the show and really, really excited for this show.

I'm delighted to be here and what a wonderful intro. You've uh you summarized my journey perfectly.

Okay, okay, and that's exactly uh where I'm I'm going to, you know, what I'm going to begin with at this conversation, Alicia, because um, as I mentioned in the intro, I barely scratched the surface, but you know, for our listeners, you stepped away from skim links, you went kind of in that searching, you know, phase. Um if we if we can share, like, you know, what was that journey like and how uh what you found or didn't find it became flown. If we can, you know, uh share with our lipstick.

Do you know? I I think that there are very few times in our life. Um, some people never get it. Often it's just a handful of times, when you have this very deliberate period of time where you're between things, you know, and and it's a it's called a it's a liminal space. You're you're between different places. And I have a I have a little life motto, which is that there's power and liminal spaces, um, by which I mean that in these in-between phases where you're between jobs or between stages of life, or you've just finished one project and the next one's beginning. But it's these like moments when uh you're in between things that um you know, real change and really um bold new things have the space to emerge. And I really I I I've always known that, you know, sometimes I've had that kind of experience in the past when I was moving countries, you know, I'm Australian originally. And, you know, I I spent um initially like four years living in London. And when I chose to live, leave London, I deli deliberately took a six-month backpacking um, you know, break to, you know, before I moved back to Australia. And that was again a liminal space that I gave myself the time to not think about work or responsibilities, but for emergent possibilities, you know, to appear. And other people get it when they're between jobs or when, you know, just before a child arrives, for example. So I really knew that after I left Skimlinks, um I deliberately did not plan anything next. I knew that this was going to be a liminal space, and I really wanted to take the time with intention to um explore lots of different ideas and create the space for something big to emerge in that space. And, you know, in retrospect, I, you know, I'm I feel very lucky that it went as it did because I, in you know, the the two years really between uh Skimlink's finishing for me and me starting full-time on flown, I played with a ton of different ideas, uh, businesses, learning possibilities, uh places. I became a nomad, I got a dog, I like read and played with different um modalities of thoughts. And it was in that very deliberate, playful space that I fell in love with the concept of focus and deep work, which brought me to where I am today.

Wow. So many, I mean, yeah, a lot of things. And and did you did you anticipate any any specific, like, you know, this is gonna happen, or probably, you know, I'm gonna do this? Like, did you have like a very specific plan and it happened that um you know that plan maybe something different happened than what you had initially planned for?

I I didn't I didn't have a plan. Um I had um I I had an explosion of ideas. I remember very clearly, um, you know, probably a week or two after the reality of leaving my company that I'd spent 11 years building and running, and you know, it went from that being my life to the next day, you know, the day that I finished up there, that was it. And I suddenly had all this possibility ahead of me. And my mind just exploded. And the only way that I could tame it, I remember creating all these Trello boards, like notion Kanban boards of all the different ideas and things I wanted to do. You know, I had one for the travel I wanted to do, one for what I wanted to learn, one for ideas I wanted to explore. And I just basically dumped everything that popped into my head and put it into this um this, I think there were three or four trello boards. And I then systematically went to try to do as many of them as I could, you know, and I I also um was very open to opportunities that sort of came my way and I sort of ran with them. Um and so I because I I think, and you know, it's a really core value of mine that, you know, I've really baked into what Fun has become, but this idea that it's it's when you play and it creates space for play and for creativity that unexpected things emerge. So I didn't know what I was going to be doing in a year's time. I had no idea, but I knew that I would give whatever came up the um the respect of playing with it for a bit. So I remember like I was playing with things like um uh um environmentally friendly pension schemes. And I remember I was doing something like for IVF kind of plans, um, like a startup that did that. I also did a coaching course uh and became a qualified coach. I also worked as a venture capitalist for a while. I also ran a bunch of events. I also like there was just all these things that I was like, yeah, I've always wanted to do that. And so I would give it a try. Um and I also very deliberately said no to a lot of things. I got offered, you know, jobs that would have been commitments. And I just was not ready to rush into anything permanent just yet. I I really, really wanted to give the um the gem that is these kind of liminal spaces enough time because I think it's all it's very tempting when we have finished something and we don't know yet what the next thing will be. It's very, very tempting to be panicky and rush into making taking, you know, the first opportunity that comes your way for fear, you know, for money, for status, for boredom. But I I guess I just had enough confidence that I'd eventually work it out. And but I would never get back the calm and the magic of these moments when you don't really have anything to do. So you can do anything. And, you know, because really how often do you get them? You know, not not very often. And um, I think in our lives we might get them when we finish high school, when we're between jobs, when maybe when we go backpacking for periods of time, but generally we're always committed to something, you know, a job or family or something like that. And uh, I think that real magic can happen when you give yourself a a chunk of time to just play.

That's really cool. That's really really cool. And it's it also kind of uh breaks this uh myth or misconception that um taking you know breaks or uh finally you know having that time when on paper you are just doing doing nothing. I mean, you know, it's looked down upon as something where it's assumed that yes, actually you're doing nothing. But yes, when we kind of transition from something that we have built from scratch, we have been part of it for so long, um it becomes um, you know, undoubtedly a part of our identity.

And not just identity, but also it becomes almost like an impulse. So, you know, we're used to being something and therefore doing something in a certain way. And it is very hard not just to break the pattern, but to even see that there is a pattern that you're beholden to. And the pattern might be the best thing for you, but um it I think it's a really healthy thing for humans to recognize when they are stuck in a in a pattern that might be limiting them in some way and seeing what happens if they break out from that for a bit, even for a bit. Um, it's why I think travel is such a powerful tool for change. It's why I think a lot of people do, for example, psychedelics, because that's exactly what psychedelics do is they um they sort of um create new neural pathways that make you think about or perceive things in um in in new ways and therefore create this expansiveness of possibility that might not have been there before. Um and yeah, I think that that is an important um, you know, I think anyone that's between careers uh or between jobs should try, even for a limited time, to use that time to play. I've I've I'm I've actually got two very good girlfriends that were in that position. They were between jobs and their instinct, because they're such type A women, was to like rush, rush, rush, get a bunch of interviews, just get the next job. Um, and I was really encouraging of them to say, you know what, just take, like, take three months off. It's not a long time. You've got the money, you'll be in, you know, 20 years' time, you'll look back and be so grateful that you gave yourself that time, take a course, go on an unexpected trip, you know, say yes to something you've never said yes to before, and just see what comes out of that time. And, you know, universally those, you know, when when those women take um take advantage of that and do that, they they are transformed by the experience.

Yeah, yeah. And that that brings me to understanding, you know, um uh you know what you have seen, and then you uh you know, building flown, and then watching thousands of people inside your sessions. Um that common belief that being unable to focus it's a personal feeling, or it's you know, it's like a character flaw, something that we should be able to fix with another um, let's say a productivity hack or uh another app. But what does that truth actually look like, Alicia?

So I think that um it's such a funny uh concept, this idea of productivity, because I think you know we we seek it because uh you know increasingly life just gets faster and faster around us, and we um we seem to we we all feel this sense that we're drowning and we're doing all that we can just to make sure our head is at least above the water, if not, you know, flourishing above it. And uh so we're always seeking that next system or that next tool or that next supplement that can help us work faster, do more, etc. And um, you know, there's I I've been really um inspired by a lot of the the books and research in the area because you know, one of the first things to acknowledge, and there's a great book um uh called, I'm looking at my bookshelf now, 4,000 weeks, uh, by Old Berkman, which if anyone's not read it is absolute must have reading, because 4,000 weeks is the number of weeks we live on average. And it's the first thing to do is acknowledge that you will never feel like you're above your your head is above water. Everyone is always feeling like they're struggling. Uh, and so you are not broken or special uh if you feel that way or don't feel that way. You know, everyone is struggling to stay on top of just life's complexities and fast-moving pace. The second thing is that um uh that you know, everyone's everyone is very different. So there's always going to be different things that work for different people. Um but it's really uh it really helps to understand how we are wired as humans, uh, and how you specifically um are wired. So some people are very incentivized by um by accountability buddies or by you know carrots, and some people more motivated by sticks, for example. So you work out what it is. Like for me, I know that I am really mo like letting myself down doesn't bother me. Letting other people down really bothers me. I don't want to let anyone else down. So the best way to get me to do something is to set it up so that if I don't do it, I will be letting someone else down. Right. And so that's that's kind of the next sort of really useful productivity you know hack that does work, which is just work out what works best for yourself, be honest about your weaknesses and strengths, and then set up your sort of scaffolding and sort of you know, focus infrastructure to take advantage of that uh internal knowledge. And then it's useful to know that there are, you know, a plethora of different types of tools that can help, by the way. So, you know, some people do like and flourish using the sort of more passive tools like, you know, a meditation app or you know, a course that you have to sort of digest a bit of content every day for a period of time. Other people find that really, really hard because it takes motivation to do that. And you don't get the same type of dopamine hit in return for doing it. And so uh so body doubling um is a technique that is incredibly effective for a really wide range of people. Um and for those that don't know, so body doubling, which sounds like sounds like an you know, an extra, like you're uh an extra in a film, you know, or a stunt double. But a body double is basically when you do something or work alongside someone else. And the reason it is effective, um, like let's say it's an accountability buddy at the gym, or it's going to the library to study and being around other people that are studying. Or in the case of body doubling platforms like Flown, it's turning up to work when you're working from home on a virtual focus session where you are working alongside other professionals from around the world and you can see them silently working while you silently work. And it's one of those things that's like, how on earth could that possibly work? But it it works for a number of reasons. The the first is um when you just the way that, again, humans are wired. So we are wired as social animals um to mimic each other. You know, that social mimicry is the way that we learn empathy, it's the way that we learn to eat, to behave, etc. And we subconsciously do it. It's how we learn ambiently. And so when you are around a bunch of people focusing, you subconsciously will mirror their grounded state and you will find it significantly easier to focus yourself. It's just the way that we are wired as humans. And then beyond sort of the neurochemistry of it, there's the sort of social psychology of it, which is when you're around other people doing something, it's incredibly motivating. And so if you turn up to a focus session and there's, you know, 50 people from around the world that somehow manage to get over their procrastination and get to work, you will feel more likely to say, actually, I can do it too. And thirdly, there's just the accountability buddy system. So, what I said before about letting someone else down, if you say to someone, I will be there, I will do this task, you are just significantly more likely to turn up and to do that task than if you tried to do it on your own. Again, it's just the way that humans are wired for the most part. Uh, and so body doubling is a way to hack and take advantage of that inbuilt um desire to please the people around us, not let them down, that means that we show up and we get started on work. And then the fourth and final reason is just basic um scheduling. Like if you time box your focus time and prioritize it, so right, today I'm gonna do two hours of deep work at this time and it's in the diary, which means everything else has to fit around it. That means you're much more likely to do that two hours of focus than if you said, you know what, I'm gonna fit in a bit of work when I can around these meetings and calls and emails. Uh, and so those four reasons are the way that um that people can focus uh using body doubling and make it work for the way that they are internally wired.

Hmm. Yeah, this is interesting. This is interesting. I mean, yeah, it's it's kind of, you know, it's been there. It's been there because the idea behind that uh, you know, it does work is uh very fundamental part of you know us human beings. Um the social mimicry that you know in the presence of someone. I think um even at a distance, you know, that presence that is enough uh to settle a restless mind. And I believe it's something very interesting about this. So let's let's try to you know understand Alicia how it exactly looks like when we apply this into everyday. Um okay, so let's say uh for someone uh who is listening today, they are they maybe you know going to subscribe to a platform or maybe you're gonna join um a community or a flock, you know, just trying to get their week with a little more focus um and a little less self-criticism. Um how how do they start this? I mean, like what's one small ritual or practice you would give them so they can begin tomorrow?

Yeah, well, I mean, there's Florin, but there's others. So find a body doubling platform that you like, the look of. Um they all sort of there's a similar kind of approach to them, which is that you you sign up and then you you you join or you book into a focus session. Um There's different types of formats. So for the people that need the most um support, uh, I usually recommend that they choose a facilitated focus session. So that's some that's a focus session led by a focus facilitator. And their job is basically in the same way that like a Peloton or SoulCycle instructor leads an exercise class. That's sort of what a focus facilitator does. Um, they get everyone in the room, they get them all, you know, excited, they make sure that the session runs smoothly, that everyone knows what they're doing, that it feels like a produced event that you're showing up for. You're not just doing it at a task on your task list, you are turning up to an event. You know, it changes your relationship with work. And you then either share, depending on the format, you can sometimes state to other people or you write it into the chat what you're going to achieve for the next hour. And then everyone turns their um, you know, you make sure that the um you're on mute, but you've set up the um the session on a second screen so that you can always see it. You can always see from the corner of your eye that there's other people working, and you're on camera so that you know that you are also being watched. And that again adds another element to it that helps you stay focused. And then that's it. You will, I mean, people are kind of blown away by how effective it is, and not just that, like how addictive it can become in a positive way. Because it again, you trigger the dopamine receptors in your brain when at the end of that hour, you've gotten done what you said you would get done, and you've been around other interesting people from around the world, you feel great. And so you start to associate that rush, that high, with working in this way. And so you turn up again, and then you turn up again. And that's why the average number of focus sessions that users on our platform um spend a week is six. So on average, people are spending attending six focus sessions a week, on average, because it's such an effective way to work. So they're the facilitated ones. There's also um unfacilitated sort of drop-in focus sessions, which are like turning into a virtual library and they're always on. There's no one speaking, but it's really great if you want to dip into 20 minutes here, half an hour there. Um, it's a really great way to get a quick focus fix. And then there's also um the peer-to-peer sessions. So they're smaller, more informal sessions run by other people, other professionals. And you turn up, it's a smaller group. So usually there's a little bit more socializing at the beginning, which people that are working remotely sometimes really value. But then for the majority of the session, you're deep work, silence, you're working uh in the presence of a smaller number of people. And that appeals to some people. So um yeah, I what I tend to recommend people that want to get started is just dive in to the first one that's available, but try the different formats and see which ones work best for your brain chemistry.

Hmm. And this this line particularly holds importance here. Which work one works uh best for for yourself. Because I think that uh gives that also uh you know makes it more uh I shouldn't say easier, but uh, you know, it brings that confidence and you know tries to help you gain back that trust. But okay, um maybe this one, no, it doesn't. And it it tends it kind of you know tends you, tends or gives that trigger to you to understand yourself in a better way.

Yeah. And I mean so much of all of this is get like know yourself, which is such a cliche. Like my you can't see it, but my eyes are rolling as I say it. But it's it's but it's so true. Like you've got to know what what makes what brings out your best and what doesn't, and then it's up to you to structure your focus architecture around you to to work towards your strengths.

Absolutely. Now, before we wrap up, one question that comes to my mind is you know, let's say um, so you mentioned that, you know, around six uh six sessions. Um, and now yeah, we may be in that, I may be in that transition period, but for uh, you know, life is unpredictable. You know, there can be multiple reasons, maybe you know, it can kind of distract us from these sessions and you know it may demand our attention. Or we may feel that, you know, maybe something uh you know is really demanding my attention right now. So in that case, sometimes, you know, there there's this um there's this feeling that maybe right now it's not the the best time for this. Um in such situations or scenarios, how do you how do you suggest we can you know still uh kind of try, try to, you know, bring you know a balance in there? Because yes, there are some things on which we cannot control, we don't have any control in there, but we do not also want to lose on something where we believe that it's going to work for me or for us.

It's you know, what I'm what I'm um what what comes to mind when you ask that is in my in my Palace studio, there's a sign that I really love, and it says uh one day or day one, you decide. And I love that because that's kind of the case here. Like, you know, you can start one day or today can just be day one. And I think you know, uh so much of life is going, you know what? You know, today's gonna just be day one. Um because it's not it's not like it's do you know for people that are unsure about it, it's not you don't have to do anything, you're just doing your normal work, you're just doing it in the presence of other people.

Absolutely, absolutely. Oh, great. So, Alicia, before we wrap up, um, for our listeners, I mean, I know we couldn't cover everything in the first time. I know this is so much fun of yeah, but because this is very, very interesting, honestly. So I'm very sure our listeners will be very eager, curious to explore more. So if they want to experience a flock or follow your work or learn more about flown, where's where's the best place for them to go?

Just head to flown.com, flown.com. And there's a 30-day free trial on offer there. So just jump in and give it a try.

Absolutely. So uh listeners, what I'll do is I'll drop all of that in the episode notes. Easy to find. So, yep, refer to them attached along with this episode. And Alicia, thank you so much for being here. I mean, first of all, um I really, really, you know, I think our listeners, you know, they'll definitely um, you know, they absolutely loved hearing your journey, your story in there. And of course, you know, uh exploring, learning, maybe, you know, probably hearing for the first time about, you know, the body double, uh, doubling and and you know, flow and the concept behind it. And uh, and thank you so much. This was really, really uh, you know, interesting.

My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me uh on your podcast and a pleasure to meet you, Sana.

And listeners, thank you so much for being here. So if something that Alicia shared, whether it's her journey or it's about uh flown or it's it's anything from her life that you know it connected with you and maybe you know it gave you permission to stop blaming yourself at being distracted. Do sit with that for a moment before you scroll past because that softening is the work. And yes, this has been Healthy Mind Healthy Life, part of the Healthy Mind Biovic Network. I am Sana. I'll catch you in the next episode. Until next time, breathe a little easier, work a little gentler, and remember that focus was never meant to be a lonely thing. Thank you so much.