Dear listeners, do you know that feeling like sitting in early morning sunlight and something in you just settles? The tension in the shoulders releases slightly. The mind gets a little quieter. Most of us write it off as a nice moment and move on, right? So what if that's not just a moment of calm? What if light itself, like uh specific wavelengths of it, delivered in specific ways, is I would say one of the most powerful tools we have for supporting the health and the brain. Great to think about, right? So the science is on uh this is moving fast, and today's guest is right at the frontier of it. So, hey dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Healthy Mind, Healthy Life, where we explore the full, fascinating landscape of what it means to feel genuinely well. I'm your host Avik, and I'm really glad that all of you are here today. And my guest today holds degrees in psychological sciences, nutritional medicine, and a postgraduate qualification in clinical neuroscience. So she spent the early part of her career as a pharmaceutical research scientist, then crossed into the biohacking world and into photobiometilation, the science of using specific light wavelengths to support brain and the body function. She is the co-founder and CEO of Sarah Thrive, creator of Sarah System, and the first FDA-listed red light therapy device specifically targeting the gut brain access. I'll do not want to take much more time, dear listeners. Please welcome my guest, Sarah Turner. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

Amazing, amazing. So, Sarah, like uh before we get into the uh science and the technology, I want to ask you about the journey. Like, uh, you spent a decade in pharmaceutical research and uh then made a significant pivot towards um photobiomedulation and light therapy. So, what happened that shifted your focus so completely?

That's a good question. Yeah, actually, I my initial training and my initial career was very orthodox, like you said. I started um I started off in pharmaceuticals um doing device development. So um I was involved in the research and development of different devices, mainly asthma devices, for how you actually uh deliver drugs. And it was during that time that I started to do some research on things like um static buildup in the body. So, what happens to these uh to the asthma drug if you deliver the drug um to the body with when it's in different stages? And and I was in a lab, so I was using an artificial lung, if you like. And uh actually what the research showed is that if you just ground uh yourself when you're doing the delivery, the drug delivery, uh, and you ground the stack, the artificial lung that you're using, you get a different drug deposition. And the inference from that is if you remove the static charge from the person, you actually change the way that the lungs work. Um, and this was a revelation for me at the time, because it was suggesting that actually you could have a significant effect on drug deposition, not by actually changing the device, but by actually changing the person. And a very simple technique for removing electrostatic charge out of the body is to stand on the ground, you know, grounding earthing, just to put your feet flat on the ground, you actually remove the charge from the body. And that very, very simple practice could have an effect on the way that your body is actually operating. So your lungs could be functioning a lot better if you just spent a little bit of time out of your day standing with your feet on the ground. And obviously, this was something that was very uh different to what I'd been doing with drug development. Um, and it led me to go down a whole path of alternative medicine, of nutritional medicine. I moved to California, I started to get involved in this biohacking movement, as you mentioned, which is all about how can you change your lifestyle and your environment to have a better effect on your health.

Yeah. And I'd love to ask ever that. I mean, when we talk about something, I always try to focus on the misconception part also. Like uh the red light therapy has entered uh mainstream wellness conversation in a big way. But I suspect a lot of um what people think they know about it either uh kind of oversimplified or misunderstood. So, what is the biggest misconception about photobiomodulation for um the brain wellness that you find yourself gently correcting most often, like whether whether that's the uh among the skeptics or among the enthusiasts, like yeah, that's also a good question.

Um, I think most people struggle with the fact that you can get light onto the brain just with an external light source. I think most people think that it's you, you know, your brain is enclosed in your skull and it's pitch black in there. You know, it's quite an old concept to think that light actually penetrates enough through through your head, and you're actually getting that light onto the surface of the brain. Um, but actually near infrared, um, which is as you said so wonderfully in your introduction, sunrise, you have this wonderful long wave light, the red light, just beyond red, just beyond visible. Actually, the body is quite transparent to that kind of light. So you can, the light will actually penetrate straight through your your skull and onto your brain. Uh, but it's a difficult concept for a lot of people. And also, we're very used to, you know, having an effect on our brain through things like drugs, mainly people are maybe people are into meditation or things like that. But light, um it's a it seems a bit of a far-out concept that you can actually modulate your brain with light. But but in reality, you we are a species that's evolved in light. So, yes, I think that's the thing to deal with mostly is getting people to understand that, yeah, you can actually get light through the skull and onto the surface of the brain, and that does have a modulatory effect on brain function.

Exactly. And so so, like, and the and the brain specifically, because uh most people think of red light therapy as something for skin or muscle recovery. Uh, so what is actually happening when a specific weblence of light are uh applied to the head?

Yeah, so that so you're right. A lot of people are uh maybe now becoming more familiar with the red light masks or the red light panels where you're targeting the skin, you're targeting collagen production. But when you shine this slightly longer wavelength of light, so you have the visible red, but just slightly longer wavelength, you have this near infrared light. That's received by your mitochondria, which is the organelle inside the cell that's uh where we make energy. And it causes that the mitochondria to produce ATP, which is the energy molecule that the body uses for work. So shining light onto the onto the brain, the light is received by the mitochondria. It stimulates a certain enzyme within the mitochondrial matrix, and that leads to its production of energy. It also leads to a very transient release of nitric oxide gas. So you get a widening of blood vessels in that area, which leads to greater oxygenation and removal of waste products. And also the maybe one of the most interesting things is the mitochondria also pick up signals. So when these when they're stimulated with light, they actually release signaling molecules. And this signals to the cellular DNA to switch on certain healing programs because we would usually see this longer wave light at sunrise and sunset when the body is in its healing mode. So they're the things that are mainly having the effect more energy in the form of ATP, um, more oxygenated blood, and cell signaling to switch on healing programs within the body.

So okay, and like uh I'd say so. We uh I mean we we are talking about uh mitochondrial function, the um energy production at the cellular level and uh the near infrared light is one of the few things that we uh know can actually penetrate the skull and uh reach the brain tissue directly. So yeah, I mean that's not a um that's not a wellness trend, that's a measurable biological process and or something as energy demanding as the brain. Um I mean improving that energy production has real downstream consequences for yeah, and and how it shows up in the real life part, like um for someone suppose for someone who is listening who is uh dealing with a brain fog or poor sleep, uh low mood, cognitive fatigue, and things that are extremely common and that most people manage with the coffee or willpower, what does that uh like photobiomodilution actually offer them kind of share?

Yes, you're right. I think a lot of people right now are dealing with these kind of low-lying issues. And maybe one of the reasons is that we don't, we're not exposed to this near infrared wavelength. You know, most people aren't outside at sunrise, most people are spending their lives indoors now. We're no longer an outdoor species. We've kind of moved indoors, we look at technology, you know. I'm talking to you now on my computer that's emitting blue light, not red light. So we're kind of sat in front of these screens most of the day. So most people are deficient in this near-infrared light. And what happens when you replace it is for a lot of people, they get their energy, their enthusiasm, their motivation back because it's it's a little bit like a missing nutrient. We we're kind of very, very um starved for near infrared light. So people, it also reflects, you know, things like low-lying inflammation. If people are stressed or they're not sleeping well, uh, they're not getting enough of the good light, you start to develop low-level inflammation in the body. And that can be very troublesome, and that can lead to the things you mentioned, things like brain fog. It's usually due to neuroinflammation. So, what people tend to find when they correct that deficiency, inflammation in the body drops, and then they're able to think more clearly, they're able to speak better. We now know how important sleep is. You know, your brain is doing so much stuff during sleep, just getting a good night's sleep uh huge effects on mood, on digestion, uh, you know, all of these how you're dealing with stress, resilience. So I think most of us in this kind of modern indoor world are battling to some degree tiredness, gut issues, you know, low-level inflammation. So most people, when they start on a protocol of light therapy, there's some of the immediate things that you see: an increase of energy, better sleep, better mood, better resilience.

So and sleep, if I have to say, like because there there seems to be a kind of meaningful relationship between light therapy and sleep quality. Um so what's happening in the brain and body during photobiomodulation that supports better sleep. And uh, if you can also share, like uh, how does the timing of a session matter?

Yeah. So sleep actually is a highly energetic process. You know, people think that you know, if you're exhausted, you're gonna sleep better, and that's just not true. Your brain is actually quite active during sleep. We now know that there's a lot of processing that's going on during sleep. It's where you're processing what's happened in the day, it's where you're laying down memories. Also, the brain is flushing. So during the night, you actually have what's called uh a lymphatic flush. So actually, you have a fluid that's going over your brain, it's kind of flushing, going in and out of the brain, taking away waste products. So, all of these things need energy in the form of ATP. So if you give your body enough energy before you go to sleep, your brain can fully complete these processes. Then that often shows up, if you're tracking sleep in any way, as greater deep sleep. Because there are various, we we also know there are various ways of sleep. You know, there's very light sleep, deep sleep, there's REM sleep. Your butt your brain is doing different things, but you do need to have, you know, a good hour of deep sleep, and really it should be 20% of your overall sleep. So I think it is another misconception that people think sleep is just something you do where you kind of more or less just pass out, but it's not it's not true at all. There's so much that's going on in the brain during sleep. So we do need a lot of energy. So that's why things like light therapy, where you're giving your brain that increased ATP, can be very valuable. And there's actually some interesting data coming out now to show um an in an increased flushing, this gymphatic flushing I was talking about, which may have implications further down the line for neurodegeneration, because neurodegeneration could be one of the causes, could be like um an accumulation of these toxins or misfolded proteins and things that get left in the brain because people don't have enough energy while they sleep to properly complete all of these brain processes. So sleep, sleep is now becoming something that people look at with regards to almost any chronic health condition. And it's probably one of the one of the best things you can do for your overall health and to prevent uh brain uh related illnesses later on in life. You know, something very, very simple. And getting sleep at the right time, you know, you really want to sleep between like 11 and 1. You know, it the sleep time matters. It's not that you kind of can sleep all day and that that's your kind of sleep session. You really do the body, we are diurnal mammals when it comes to it. We are meant to be sleeping at certain times of day. So getting a good eight-hour sleep, making sure you're asleep between 11 and 1, and making sure you've got enough energy to have a good sleep, they're really important, and that's where red light therapy can really help.

Exactly. That's really lovely. Yeah, and and um also like um one of the things that I appreciate about uh uh how you talk about this technology is that uh you are genuinely uh rigorous about what can and cannot be claimed. So, like you are working to uh working to uh gather the clinical data needed to make specific health claims. So, uh, what is the honest current state of uh the evidence for autobiometrilation and the brain wellness? Like uh what do we know robustly? Uh like what is promising but still emerging?

Yeah, we are in early stages of the research. I think light therapy is something that's that's not new, um, and people have known the benefits of it for a very long time, but we are in the early stages of get of building the proper evidence for that. So most people follow what the FDA look at, and and at the moment the FDA, which is the obviously the US authority, do not approve red light therapy for a brain health application at the moment. So at the moment, red light therapy is approved for things like wound healing, um, for increased blood flow, for pain relief. These are all things where there is enough evidence that has been built up that the FDA accept those claims. But at the moment, there is not enough documented evidence that the FDA has approved. There is a lot of evidence actually for a brain health application, but there's a not there's not enough that's been submitted to the FDA and that's been approved by the FDA. So anybody who has a device that's targeted for the brain, it's what we call a wellness category. So it's all about improving and enhancing. So there are no claims for specific conditions, for example. So we can't say that it will cure Alzheimer's. You know, that's a big wild claim that nobody's going to make. We can say, though, that it will enhance memory, improve mood, help you sleep better. So I think a lot of people in the industry, it's kind of we're all now pushing towards getting this clinical data because it's needed for confidence in the market. It's needed so that doctors can prescribe this technology. Uh, but at the moment, there's no health claim, there's no brain health claim. Things like oral mucositis, you know, things that are caused by um drug side effects. That's something now where we are starting to get a claim. There was a claim recently for things like dry macular degeneration where using, I'm not advocating people try it at home, but using very specific wavelengths of light are now um can really help that condition. So there are certain named conditions where we're starting to see claims being made. But yes, we're still early days for the brain claim. So it's really about it's really about enhancing, improving um performance, cognition, mood, those kinds of things. In the meantime, there are lots of people now getting the evidence for things like motor neuron disease for autistic spectrum, Parkinson's. People are starting to move down the direction where the evidence is building to the point where we can get those studies.

And uh this is for the person uh who is listening who has been struggling with brain fog, low energy, disturbed sleep. Um, and and uh think of like who has tried the conventional routes and has not found um the relief they were hoping for, and at the same time, maybe who is also open uh to something different but doesn't know where to begin. So uh what would you want them to hear?

I think integrating some kind of um light technology or even just getting, you know, if you want to if you want to start simple, just get outside at sunrise. You know, there's no need why people have to, you know, think that it's an elitist thing where you have to invest in a lot of technology. You don't have to when you're starting out. Really, the very simplest way to get red light into your life is to go outside at sunrise. Um, then if you do find that you're struggling with something specific and you need more targeted therapy, there are technologies out there. Like, for example, you mentioned I started a company, Solar Thrive. We make a gut brain device very, very targeted. So you're targeting your gut and the brain together, you have much more chance of dealing with things like brain fog if you reduce inflammation in the gut. But doing very simple things like increasing your light exposure, especially in the morning, you know, if you have to do a phone call, can you do it outside? If you have to, you know, you're gonna eat your lunch every day, could you do it outside? If you're living in a big block of flats and it's almost impossible to see sunrise, could you at least put your head out of the window before you look at your phone? You know, I think everybody can make small changes to their lifestyle where they bring more natural light in. So I would recommend that anybody who's struggling, first of all, sort your sleep pattern out. Try and make sure you're in bed and asleep by 11. And then try and see sunrise as much as you can and try and at least see natural light before you look at technology like your phone. And then if you're still struggling and you want to kind of go that extra way, any of these light devices really are very good, non-toxic, effective, and easy. That's the thing. You're only extending your life, whereas with the pharmaceutical interventions, potentially, you know, you're building up toxins. So it's a very good um uh intervention that people can introduce into their routine that doesn't take up too much time, that is mimicking what your body's naturally doing, um, and thus give you those targeted wavelengths that we're all missing.

Lovely. Agreed. Uh so uh Sarah, like if someone wants to connect with you, how they can.

So my company is Serathrive, as you mentioned, so it's C E R. Sarah Thrive and I'm on all socials and I'm very accessible actually. If people want to contact me directly, you know, I'm on um LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, I'm on all of these things. The website is Sarah Thrive.com, and there's a contact me that goes directly to me. I answer all my own emails. So um I I welcome questions on this topic because it is my favorite topic and it's absolutely no trouble for me to answer questions about it. So, yes, Sarah Thrive.com. I encourage anybody with questions to reach out directly to me.

Amazing. So, listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for your easy reference. And that's the wrap for today's episode on Healthy Man, Healthy Life. And if this conversation opened a door that you didn't know existed, into the science of light and brain health, into the good frame connection, into approaches to wellness that walk at the root rather than surface. So please follow that curiously. And it's pointing somewhere, genuinely interesting, right? So uh with this hope, dear listener, this is your host of this is Healthy Man, Healthy Life. Light is not just what it's like, it may also be part of how we heal. So with this, take care of yourself and see you next time. Thanks so much.