Why Hard Talks Go Sideways

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Think about the last time you were in the middle of a difficult conversation, a disagreement with someone you loved, a tense moment at work, a silence that's just just a little too long. What did you do? If you're like most of us, you either shut down or you said something you did not quite mean. And here's the thing that is not a character for flock. Nobody actually taught us how to do this. Not in school, not at home, not anywhere forward. But we expect ourselves and the people around us to just know. Welcome back to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life, where we have honest, grounded conversations about the things that actually shape how we feel inside. I'm your host, Yusuf, and I'm so glad you are here today.

Meet Michael Ashford

SPEAKER_02 1:04

And for today, our guest is Michael Ashford, a speaking and executive communication coach, award-winning journalist, author of Can I Ask a Question? Host of the podcast, Rethinking Communication, and someone who has spent years researching what happens when people try to connect. And why is it so often go sideways? Michael, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yusuf, beautiful introduction, and I so appreciate it. I appreciate the context you've given us to this conversation and looking forward to it. Thank you so

An Awkward Interview That Taught Curiosity

SPEAKER_01 1:42

much.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

So before we get into the heart of the things, I'd love to start somewhere very personal, okay? So what was the moment in your life where you realized that I actually don't know how to communicate through hard things? Like, when did that land for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

I could go the really the really difficult route and say it was when I lost my job, got fired for just sheer I counted up to lack of of good quality conflict communication. But I actually really like to use a perhaps a more lighthearted and funny example. When I was in college writing for the student newspaper, I was doing a story about a college football player at the university that I was attending. He was very high-level athlete. He was a top-level student. He was an academic all-American. He was a father and he was a husband. So he was a busy guy. And I was writing a story about him. And somewhere in my notes, Yusuf, I had written down that his wife was pregnant with their second child. I have no idea where I got that information, but as I got to the interview, and as he and I started talking and I was asking him questions, questions that I had pre-written down and I just assumed that I already knew the answer to, I got to that question. How do you think life is going to change with baby number two on the way? And his face twisted, and he kind of like was gave me this puzzled look. And he was quiet for a second. And in my head, I just I knew. I was like, oh my gosh, I did something wrong. I shouldn't have asked that. And finally he says, Do you know something I don't? My wife's not pregnant. And I just, I was so embarrassed. I was just beside myself with uh I'm sure my face was so red. And it's it ended up being fine. Like I wrote the story, we got along with it, we laughed, I was embarrassed, but you know, no harm, no foul. But Yusuf, it was an example of the approach so many of us take into our conversations, which is we don't lead with true, genuine curiosity. We lead with we lead seeking answers to questions that we think we already know the answers to. And when we do that, things break down. That's what happened to me when I lost my job to what I alluded to earlier. I thought I knew answers to questions that I didn't have the full story. But that that examples that I gave you of the interview is just one of my fun, it's one of my most embarrassing moments, but it also taught me a really valuable lesson.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Yeah.

The Certainty Trap In Communication

SPEAKER_02 4:37

There's a phrase that comes up so naturally, naturally in your work, and it is and it kind of stops you in your tracks when you release it with it. The idea that most of us were simply never taught to communicate well. And I think for a lot of our listeners, hearing that might feel almost like a relief. But I want to ask you this what do people get wrong about what good communication even is? Like, what's the version of being a good communicator?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

The version of communication that we were taught and that we've bought into is that to be a good communicator, you have to say what you know as loudly as you can, as often as you can, and just get people to agree with you. I boil it down to we take a very certain approach to communication. And it it's I don't fault people for the most part. It's what we were taught. It's what's been modeled, it's what's been incentivized. Be certain what you know, hold fast to that. If you have an idea or an opinion, by gosh, like hold true to that. Don't deviate. When you think about how we were taught, the teacher had the right answer, the right answer, every single time. We were taught, here's the right answer. Now you tell that right answer back to me, and you're actually going to be graded on it. We're gonna test you on your ability to recite that right answer back to me. And and so it was all it was all this binary yes, no, right, wrong, good, bad version of communication. And while that may be true in things like the hard sciences, math, physics, even some of that is is not not as hard and fast as we would like to believe. But how could it possibly be true, Yusuf? When it comes down to questions of morality, when it comes to things like empathy and compassion and sympathy, how could it possibly be true that there is a right answer when it comes to how we experience the world and our differing perspectives that are born from that? Listen, it really comes down to we were taught with an air of certainty, and we were what we missed was the other half of communication, which is the curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Yeah. And I love that answer so much. And the last phrase, can you repeat that please?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

We were taught with the air of we were we were taught to lead with our certainty, and we forgot or were not taught the other half of communication, which is curiosity. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Wow, and you know, there is something so freeing about that. That what most of us are working from is just an inherited idea of communication, not a real one. And it sounds like the first step is almost just getting honest about that gap.

Questioning Beliefs Without Fear

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it is a, you know, you said it it sounds easy or it sounds freeing. The reality, Yusuf, is that's a very uncomfortable place for people to go to. When I ask people to question themselves, to point that curiosity back at yourself and question, what do I actually believe? Versus what was modeled, incentivized, just kind of assumed would be my beliefs from childhood. The first time I ever voiced my political opinion, for example, was it really my own? Was that 13-year-old kid, was that 13-year-old version of Michael who recited his political opinion, did he actually do the research and ask the deep questions and go on in a journey and an exploration of what he actually believed politically? Or was it this amalgamation of my parents and my pastor at church and my grandparents, and perhaps a little bit of my teachers and my friends, and what they said from what their parents have said. Like, what was it? And when we deeply question those core beliefs that were first formed in childhood, that is a that's an intense, uncomfortable, almost feels dangerous place to be. But it also is the core of what I ask people to do to overcome conflict, which is hey, you've got to find out what you actually believe first before you can start having these conversations with others.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, exactly.

Why School Never Taught Conflict Skills

SPEAKER_02 9:42

And you talk a lot about the fact that our formal education, school, and all of it, let us without real tools for communication, especially in conflict. I think most of us, if we look back, would feel that the truth in our bones. But I'm curious, why did we miss this? What is it about how we were raised and educated that skipped over something this essential to healthy relationships and a healthy mind?

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Oh my goodness, I love this question. It comes down to the fact that you can't test for it, Yosef. You can't test for what genuine curiosity feels like, looks like. When you point your curiosity to somebody and you ask them questions, even when you disagree, when you allow them space, when you hold space for somebody in front of you who you disagree with and you help them feel like they belong in that place with you, how can you ever test for that? You can't. There's no because there's no right or wrong answer to it. It it has to be intuited in the moment. I I I relate it to the phrase I often use is we were taught the exertion approach to communication. We were taught how to debate, how to make a case for our ideas, how to write a persuasive essay. You know, it always makes me laugh, even in persuasive essays. They always taught us to acknowledge ideas that dis that we disagree with or that go against what we're arguing for, but only as a way to prove them wrong, only as a way, as a setup to then say, but here's all the ways that they're wrong. And what I ask for people to do is tur take an extractive approach. What how would your communication change if you made it your goal to better understand somebody even when you disagree with them? Because understanding does not equal agreement. That's the line that too many people draw is that just to just to give oxygen to an idea I disagree with means that I am some way excusing it or making space for it. It's not what I'm asking us to do. But to make space for somebody who disagrees with you is the only way that I think we find common ground. The only way that I think we uncover what we're actually arguing about rather than just arguing over the fact that we're arguing. And to go back to your question, you can't test for that stuff. You it has to be experienced.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yes.

Family Tribes And The Cost Of Dissent

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Well, and do you think there are certain environments or family patterns, not just schools, that that make those gaps even wider for some people?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a therapist and I I love to make that clear, but there there are family patterns, you know, if you never pay attention to or never do deep self-reflection work, a lot of those same family patterns just repeat themselves over and over again. Like if you if you never go back to the question that I asked earlier, if you never question why you believe what you believe and how you came to those beliefs, then it feels like questioning those things goes against your tribe. We are a deeply tribe mentality species, us human beings. We like to feel like we belong. In fact, it's it's deeply ingrained in us that to belong to our tribe means safety, it means protection, it means belonging and health and well-being, like there's strength in the tribe. And and in many ways, our family is the strongest bond of tribe that we have for many people. And I understand there are there are also many people who do not have that same experience, and so they look for that tribe in other ways, friend groups, support groups, perhaps. You know, that's why we as humans, when we're going through struggle, we we often the way out of it is to find a group who has experienced the same thing you've experienced. Our tribe drive is intense. And so to question that in the way that I I ask us to do feels dangerous. It feels like you're going against it, it feels like you're being disloyal. It feels like you're going to get excommunicated from the tribe. In some instances, you might even be excommunicated from the tribe. Just look the politics today. You say you're a different kind of politics than the family that you grew up with. There are many family family relationships that break down over that. And if we don't break those cycles, if we don't lean into how to healthily communicate through that disagreement or through that, through that dissolution of just going along with what the family or the tribe believes, we just we we fall into the same patterns. We we tell ourselves, well, better to not be my true self than to be kicked out of the clan.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

It's a real thing, and I fully acknowledge that.

The Real Time Signs Of Breakdown

SPEAKER_02 15:16

When you work with someone, whether it's an executive, a parent, a leader, what does the breakdown look like in real time? Like when someone's communication gap around conflict actually surfaces, like what are the signs? What does that look like in the party, in a conversation, in a relationship?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

It's a lot of certainty. It's a lot of, it's a lot of shutdown, it's a lot of simplistic thinking. I'm not saying people are simple-minded, but it's trying to take a very complex, nuanced, gray, messy middle idea. And when we start to to fall back on our default patterns, we try to simplify it down to to the things that make us feel like we're right. That's that's where the breakdown happens is we we try to take a complex idea and smooth it out. And I often orient people when in conflict, when I see those things happen, I get curious with them. I ask them questions, of course. But two of the most important questions that I ask people, that I ask leaders to consider when they are in conflict with someone, you know, perhaps on their team, are what's your goal? What is your goal here? And and as a subset to that, are your actions, the way that you're approaching this, do you are they helping you meet that goal? And then the second question is, what could you be missing? Because I I have an idea or a thought here, maybe radical, but I believe that no human can know everything. It's just, I just don't think it's possible. I in fact, I know it's not possible, but but roll with me here. If you don't know everything, because how could you possibly, especially what's going on in someone else's mind? It's called the problem of other minds. You can't possibly know everything else that's going on in somebody else's mind. Then you have to get curious about what you don't know. And by asking yourself the question, what could I be missing? That turns on your empathy. That turns on the faucet of complex thinking, where you begin to say, hmm, well, I'm assuming this person, I'm assuming this person did this thing for this reason. I'm assuming they they said this thing because this is who they are. But if I ask myself the question, what could I be missing here? Now I have to be kind of uncomfortable and think, well, why would they say that? Why might they, why might they have taken that approach that I don't know about? It just gets you into an uncomfortable place, but it also it gets you into a healthy conversational place. Yeah.

Three Rules For Better Conflict

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Michael, for people who want to connect with you or want to learn more about this, where can you do that?

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Youssef, the hub of everything that I do is on my website at michaelashford.com. You also mentioned a few resources there in the intro. I've got a podcast. It's called Rethinking Communication. I have a book out there called Can I Ask a Question? It's it's I've got some TEDx talks, but and if you want to connect me up with me on social media, I'm most active on LinkedIn. But you can get to all that stuff on my website, Michaelashford.com, including uh information about my coaching.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Perfect. And to everyone listening, all these links are in the show notes, so just go and check those out. Michael, is there any last message that you want to leave us with?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

In my book, Yusuf, I write about this concept or this theory of conflict communication that has been born from many interviews and a lot of experience that has played out in my life. I've taken the journalist approach to conflict communication and just asked a lot of people a lot of questions. And to get in the mindset that I've described over the course of our conversation, there are three things that I want people to do. I want you to first assume positive intent of someone. When you disagree with them, assume that they had positive intent. You may not agree with what that intent was, or even that it was positive in the end. But just orient your mind around the fact that somebody might have assumed that they were doing right. Then set aside your ego, set aside your need to be right, set aside your need to be certain of what you know, and turn on your curiosity. And then, like I said, towards the end there, know that you don't know everything. And so if you don't know everything, my question to you would be wouldn't you want to know it? If there was stuff that you possibly might not have all the answers to, wouldn't you want to know it?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

And if that's the case, then you gotta go ask more questions.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Really, that that was very, very beautifully arc articulated and thank you so much, Michael. This one This one being one of those conversations I think people are going to come back to not just once, but in the moments when they need it most.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I certainly hope so. I certainly hope it helped, and I appreciate you having me on.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

And to everyone listening, if today's episode stirred something in you, that is okay. Because that is actually the point. Healthy communication is not about being comfortable, it is about being honest with yourself and with the people who matter. See you next time on Healthy Mind, Healthy Light. Take good care of yourself, and we'll talk soon.