SPEAKER_01 0:05

Listeners, have you thought about this? That the most thoughtful the person in the room is often the the quietest one. The person whose work is genuinely, genuinely, that's the key word, brilliant, is often not the one advocating for themselves every day. And somewhere along the way, we build a working world that rewards the loudest voice over the deepest thinker. Which means a lot of capable, kind, deeply talented people are sitting in meetings right now feeling invisible and assuming that this is how it is. The only way out is to become someone they are not. We are going to talk about visibility, authenticity, and what it actually takes to be seen and promoted as an introvert without burning yourself out trying to perform extroversion. And to help me with this conversation, I'm joined by Ulrike Seminati. She spent nearly three decades inside corporate communications, leadership development, and executive coaching. And she works specifically with introverted professionals who actually want to rise without losing themselves in the process. So, Ulrike, welcome to Healthy Man, Healthy Life. So glad to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I'm very honored to be here and looking forward very much to our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Absolutely, absolutely. So, Ulrike, um this is such a personal topic for me, personal, because physically I would identify myself, you know, more like an introvert or maybe ambivert, I'm not sure. But I always kind of, you know, wonder about it that uh do I have to always be, you know, super actively engaged in the physical conversations, or will I be getting any opportunity to speak out? So so I I really am really, really looking forward to this conversation. And I want to start with something I think a lot of us we get wrong about this, this whole you know, conversation. So when most of us we hear introvert at work, we immediately think, and that's what I also used to consider myself as shy or socially awkward or maybe you know underconfident. And I think that this that that really costs, this really costs so many talented people their careers because they are being measured against a definition that was never really about them. So, what do you think are we getting wrong? The biggest misconception, you know, including introverts, about what introversion actually is in professional setting?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

I think the biggest misconception is that it's a weakness. You know, there's still this feeling that if you say uh people are reluctant to say I'm an introvert because they think that's a weakness. And I think that is, first of all, the really biggest misconception because everything everything stems from that. Because we think it's something not good, it's not valued in the corporate world. People don't look behind the scenes, which you need to do if you really want to get information from an introvert and so lose them. And they sometimes also lose themselves because they think, and that was me including, by the way, in my corporate career, yeah, because we think we need to we need to change, we need to fake extrovertism and we need to be louder and socialize more and force ourselves into situations so we don't appear like an introvert. And I think that is first of all the biggest misconception. And I think not not all introverted people have low self-confidence, but often there's this negative spiral that that turns you down because as we try to be someone else, we tell ourselves permanently that we are not good as we are. And this is why often the confidence of self-confidence of introverted professionals is lower, because permanently we show ourselves actually that we are not good enough for what we think we we should do. And I think this is the biggest misconception that it's not seen as a separate set of strengths that we can build on.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

And I thousand, I mean infinitesimally percent agree with you, Ulrike, because and one more thing, if I mean I correct me if I'm wrong, that I think you know, introverts or you know, people they are very selective towards, you know, when they are in that particular environment. I think they absolutely feel that confidence to speak out uh quote unquote loud, but speak whatever exactly is is needed, not less, not more, you know, very measured and very calculated uh way they speak out loud. And they I I believe that, you know, because of this misconception that you just described, that it's more like a weakness, especially when you go out in the professional world. Sometimes it undermines or portrays this as weakness for themselves, you know, let alone for others.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, that's exactly it. And, you know, like you say, when somebody who is an introvert has has obviously uh certain talents and strengths that uh extroverts have a bit less or very much less, depends on the person. But it's about listening deeply, analyzing the situation, reading between the lines. Introverts often in a meeting, they see what extroverts miss because they speak all the time, so they can't listen at the same time. Introverts observe, so they see the faces, they see the emotional reactions of people, they actually feel really what's going on. They are much more aware of dynamics of a team, for example, because they can just see and feel it because they observe. And like you say, when an introvert is how to say assertive enough and not ruminating too much, they will say very rounded things. They will say things with a bit on the bone because they have reflected on it, because there's really something important to say, and they only say it when it's important. Where the problem starts is actually for both introverts, but also for the whole environment, is when dominate so much, rehearsing the sentence ten times in their head while the meeting is going on, and once they're ready to say that perfect version that they have now approved in their head, well, the conversation has on and they don't say anything. And that means their ideas get lost, they get frustrated about themselves because it's often a very repetitive situation. It repeats even several times in one meeting, oftentimes, and they gim come to the conviction that finally I'm just I'm just I'm just I have ideas, but I'm kind of unable to bring them to the table and somehow doesn't serve anything. And you know, they they start feeling really, really frustrated about that. And people, if they don't have the patience to look behind the scenes of this person or asking them outside of a meeting, for example, what they think of the situation, then their ideas just never get included into the thinking of the group. And that is a huge loss for both the group and the individual.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

It is, it is, yeah. I mean, the this I'm very sure many of our listeners, for many of our listeners, this will be a bit surprising or eye-opening. And you know, I think a lot of people, you know, they just exchale a little because, you know, being told for years that you should be more outgoing when uh what you actually needed was quite a way to contribute, it definitely does something to a person. And it makes me really wonder what exactly goes on underneath, you know, because the cost isn't just career shaped, you know, there are other aspects as well. And that brings me uh, Urike, to the next question. That, you know, rather than being a skill problem, it's a visibility problem, like you know, something about how organizations are structured and how we have been taught to read competence. What do you think is really happening beneath the surface when, let's say, a brilliant, capable introvert keeps getting passed over for someone less qualified but more visible?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Well, what's happening is that we we find that situation that often you then have a boss or a line manager who is less qualified than you because this person just shouted out very loudly. And maybe they have even taken credit for your achievements, which is the worst case. But at least they have like exaggerated probably what they have achieved before. And that is that is super frustrating in the sense that it's not only not right, yeah, it's uh something that means we have the wrong people sometimes in the wrong place. I don't say, obviously, I don't say that all extroverts are bad leaders, not at all. But sometimes some extroverts just get promoted because they did a huge amount of self-promotion that landed well with other extroverted leaders that are already in place. So we are just repeating the same pattern again and again. And what I find really interesting, and and this is always something that my my coaches also find really, really motivating, actually, that there are statistics about that, that introverted leaders have create more productivity and motivation when they lead, when an introverted person leads extroverted people versus the other way around. And that is really interesting in the sense that in reality we have much more the other way around. We have extroverted leaders leading introverted people. And what this leads to is that you know, extroverted leaders take a lot of space. When they hold a meeting, they they have a lot of speaking time themselves, which means their team members have very few speaking time. And if they're introverted, they have no speaking time because they don't catch it, because it's not their style. And an extroverted leader will just think from his or her perspective, like everybody actually, thinking, well, if she or he has something to say, well, they will say it, because that's what they would do. Yeah. So they don't go and ask. An introverted leader is totally different. First of all, they leave the space to the others in the meeting. So a lot of ideas come from the team members. And if there's if there's somebody who is not speaking, they most likely will take that person after the meeting and ask them in a one-on-one. Because they know that in a one-and-one, this person will speak much more freely and much more comfortably, and they suspect, and rightly so, that this person probably has a lot of good ideas. And that's why an introverted can be a fantastic leader, create amazing results. And often people underestimate this within themselves, if they're introverted, because they see the opposite model all the time. And I think this is a huge misconception that we have out there. And I would really love to break that cycle or help people break that cycle, you know, that it's always the same pattern that repeats, to turn it into something that is just more balanced, that we have introverted and extroverted leaders out there because they can come with a different perspective to the table and lead just as a leadership team also in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

And we can see examples out there, plenty of examples. And and I mean, we we definitely need more and more introverts as as leaders, and and I'm not just you know blindly advocating or doing anything like that, but if if you know, for the you know, benefit of doubt, if the research is also supporting that, we definitely believe that, you know, introverts and I think I think you know, unfortunately, it starts from themselves, you know, because once they realize that, you know, how much how much this quote unquote you know weakness as it is portrayed, it can be it can be leveraged as their superpower or their strength, especially when you are you know considering a leadership position. I believe that's that's a brilliant, you know, first step towards you know removing and breaking this myth or this misconception that you know the introvert, you know, especially when you are getting considered for a leadership position, it's it's going to be a weakness. No, it is not. You don't have to completely change yourself and you know shift towards extroversion to become a good leader.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yes, I fully agree. And the the very first step is really, like you say, embracing the fact that you're an introvert and liking it. You know, liking the fact that you're like that. Liking the because you like certainly also other introverts. Because they're you you like them because they're more thoughtful, they they say things that uh have a profound meaning, for whatever reasons, but you like them. So there are many people who like your introvert style too. The thing is that we first of all have to acknowledge ourselves for that and say, okay, what what is different with me? You know, when I go to a networking event, I hate being there, first of all. Okay. Oh, serious. Everybody's speaking about, you know, their I don't know what their what they did over the weekend and also their professional achievements, and this and that, and you think like, oh my god, who's interested in all of that? Yeah, often we think this but instead of then thinking, oh, I should do that too, because you know, I haven't said anything yet, and everybody's talking and I'm just standing there. Use it, you like you say it, like I said, see what superpower is in this, because you can just use it very deliberately once, not because you have to, because but because you want to, to observe the situation, to really understand the dynamics in the team and between the people, because you see who has conflict with who, who is jealous about what, who you see all of that and using that first of all as a strength. Like I see the full landscape, and I don't force myself to be superficial. No, I take this information. What can I do maybe with this information at the end? You know, because you might want to create an ally in the team with you where you see this person also. I know that they have ideas, and you might think, oh, I haven't spoken to them because they're not the ones who get loud and who will promote me. Maybe not, yes, but they have fantastic ideas, you know. I mean, other introverts and you know, just going with intention into situations, not with the intent that is a huge shift, not with the intent to be like the extroverts or like all of those who fake extrovertism because a lot do that, you know, naturally. Not with that intention, forget about that, but set yourself a goal that makes sense to you. For example, in a network event, you could say, I don't need to participate in the conversation as if I was an extrovert, putting funny comments here and there and dropping whatever you can say. No, I go there with the intent to have one meaningful conversation. Maybe even you say one meaningful conversation with this person. And I just want to have a good exchange, something that is a more profound. Think about a question you want to ask that person so that you get right away into a discussion that has some sense, that is not just superficial. And you have this one meaningful conversation, and you know, believe me, the whole the whole clutter, this whole noise that is out there is forgotten afterwards, but the person you had this meaningful conversation with will not forget that conversation. And seeing that as a strength, I do one thing with intent that fits to me and that lasts, and I can build on this with other one intentions, not 10 or 20, that that really builds credibility and that gives you this famous visibility over time, but in a very calm and structured way

(Cont.) How Introverts Get Promoted Without Performing Extroversion, with Ulrike Seminati

SPEAKER_00 17:07

100%, 100% Ulrike.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

I mean, it's like you are just saying my mind out loud, because I I uh absolutely and and you know, I was doing this conversation with another guest. It's yet to be released on Bisplend for the listeners. You know, I hosted a while ago, Ulrike on Bisplend as well. So we were we were having this uh episode recorded, Ulrike, about you know how poker playing poker, it has leadership lessons in it. And then we also discussed about this, you know, uh it's it's a military strategist uh strategy, which is the ODA loop, like observe, orient, decide, and act. So when you know that you are already, you know, you communicate in a very measured way, and that introversion itself is giving you that time to observe, I think that can be leveraged to a brilliant use of you know, strategically and authentically, authentically building relationships, you know, even if you are in a network event or you are in the boardroom, you are in a professional environment.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, exactly. And that's what you said is really interesting, the military strategy, because that's exactly the point. As an introvert, we can analyze very well, we can plan very well. So that means we can set up a strategy very well. So why don't we do this for ourselves more? And we say, okay, I don't have to convince in a meeting all the 10 people sitting in that room. Probably not. And you won't. And this is huge pressure again, and it won't work. But there's maybe one strategic key decision maker in there, or one person I know that I want to position myself towards that person. So look at that person. What does he or she want? What are their aspirations? What are their motivations? What are their pain points? And then you really think of how can I help them to achieve what they want to achieve? And how can I bring in my competence so that it works for both of us, like creating a win-win. And you do this strategically. So not like I have to show myself to everybody, everybody needs to embrace my achievements. That's not that so that's sort of really not working. But rather, being strategic and very selective about your actions, and then you're much more able also to carry them out in a in a proper way, in a way where it feels authentic to you and not too much, because you have thought it through with your strategy and you just do it. And this can sometimes be just one remark, one well thought-through sentence. Maybe it's it maybe it's even a follow-up, a written follow-up after a meeting. We also underestimate that very often and think when the meeting's over, it's too late. And maybe not. Maybe a follow-up to one of the key stakeholders with a next action that you will take, you know, to announce this in an email, which is much more an introvert-friendly way to do this. Yeah. And also thinking about single steps, but they are strategic and they have weight instead of trying to do the mass, the mass conviction method. And like we can paint.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

True, that is true. And before we wrap up, for someone listening right now, Ulrike, who's who's already just like me, exhausted by trying to be more outgoing because I don't have a single clue how to, in fact, you know, just as you said, Ulrike, I mean, how do I behave like that particular person? They are so outgoing, they're so, you know, gelling very well. What is the very first thing that, you know, I, many of our listeners, you know, who are identifying themselves in this right now, they can do this week, you know, something small enough to actually try.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

One small thing if they're really in the corporate world and doing meetings every day, meetings where they feel overlooked. So you choose the meeting where you're always the most overlooked. They could do it this week. And you know what topic the meeting is about, most likely, if there's an agenda, or at least there's a title for the meeting, so you know what we'll be you'll be talking about. Choose, prepare yours for yourself already one sentence you want to say. You know, like one key opportunity I see here is this or that, or one key risk that I see is XYZ or something. Something where you have thought through before, where you have used all the knowledge that you have about this topic, and you prepare it before. And that will help you so that you don't have to rehearse that sentence all the time in your head in the meeting, because you have something on your hand. Like, you know, if you're in an online meeting, you can even write three or four versions of something down. Still you have to say it. But you know, don't like in that one meeting, stop trying to contribute whenever you can, because then you don't. Because it moves on and it moves on and moves on and nothing happens for you. But wait for the opportunity to speak about this one thing that you have prepared, and then you say it. And you try how that feels and how that works. And it's just a very first step to have a more controlled way of contributing, which feels much safer usually. And from this, you can really start, you know, building more presence and more visibility without being the one ever actually, you don't need to, without being ever the one who says all the time every two seconds a sentence. That's not necessary. But if you say something that is more grounded, or you know, something that has has some substance, then people, if you do that more often, even if it's just one time you speak up in a meeting and not more, but you say something with substance, people will will start realizing when you speak, you say something with substance. You better listen. Yeah. And that is actually the thing, yeah. So that that is one thing that I would uh I would start with actually, it's probably the easiest one.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I mean relief to hear because it is not asking us to ask introverts to do any kind of overhaul or for a huge you know change or this completely new version of yourself, but it's it's working with who you already are. Just you know, more strategically.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yes, exactly. That's exactly the idea. Because you know, I've I've I've created this online course which I just launched now, because all the courses out there are you to become an extrovert, roughly. So to adapt extroverted behavior. And it does not work for introverts, never, because if you're not authentic, you lose your energy, you don't radiate anymore, and you you burn out over time. It's just draining. And it's the opposite of what you want. So I I think it's super important to learn how to be more visible and valued without compromising who you are by building on these strengths, by building on your listening strengths, by building on your analytical strengths, by building on your planning capacity, on the strategic thinking that you have, and using things wisely instead of just being loud and instead of putting pressure on you being all the time on. Yeah. And being rather, you can stay in the background, but still be someone who is who is a very, who's the go-to person at the end for many critical questions, for many in-depth problems, because people understand that wow, this person has substance. And I like to work with them because they they deliver that you must have you must do some little things, let's say, to make it visible. Yeah. Without dragging, without bragging, without overpromoting yourself and these kind of things, which I also know that does not work. It feels completely inauthentic. But again, it's always really about finding a few small things. Less is more, really. I think probably that's the one thing to retain is that less is more. And on this less you go deep. Yeah, roughly. That can that's the overall strategy.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

That's very well summarized, Wilrike. I think listeners, we are uh, you know, this is perfectly, perfectly concluded episode on Hillman Hilly Lef. And before we wrap up, Ulrike, if our listeners they would like to, you know, connect with you, keep working, you know, with what you teach, where where can they, you know, uh find you?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah, I think the easiest is to go on LinkedIn because you find my name. Very easily. To go on LinkedIn and on LinkedIn you can click on visit my website or any post that I do, you can also click on visit my website, which is under my name. And there you get to a free training. And this free training is really about being seen, valued, and promoted without compromising who you are. And it's a 50 minutes piece, actually, where you will learn a lot of strategies, how to be more visible, how to speak up in meetings, your way, yeah, how to network differently, how to self-promote differently, how also to resource yourself differently, which is also a very important point for introverts because we don't resource enough at all, or not our way, at least, on the day. And that is also a stretch, which we often completely underestimate and would know why we feel so drained in the evening or at the weekends. So, yeah, join this free masterclass whenever you want. It's there, and I would be really happy to see you there one day.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

That's really, really great handlessness. To make that easier, I'll have all the links mentioned in the show notes. So uh I invite all of you to check out Ulrike's website and check out her masterclass. And Ulrike, thank you so much because this has been a very, you know, honestly, an episode, you know, such a relief to hear, first of all, for many, many introverts out there who are listening. And secondly, practical and doable. And, you know, of course, as you perfectly concluded, less is more. So thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me. And to whoever listening right now, maybe between meetings, maybe you are on a walk after a long day. I just want to say this if you have spent years feeling like you have to shrink or you have to perform or pretend to be louder than you are just to belong to work, the world doesn't need more performance. It's already a lot of there. It needs more of you. The real you showing up consistently and on purpose. You're not broken for being thoughtful, you're not behind for being quiet. You're just waiting for a version of success that fits you, who you actually are, and you are allowed to build that. So, thank you so much for tuning into this episode. You are listening to Healthy Man Healthy Life. I am Sana. I'll catch you in the next episode. Thank you so much.