SPEAKER_00 0:05

Listeners, I mean this is going to be a bit different conversation because today the topic itself, it is I think it is something that every leader carries, but almost nobody talks about. I mean, think about it. What if the reason that your team is feeling disconnected, your decisions they start to feel reactive? Or your leadership, it feels heavier than it should. All of these, these are not strategy problems. What if it's a nervous system problem? It's wild, but it's quite interesting to think from this perspective, listeners. And today we are actually talking about this and also how that invisibly shapes the culture, the conversations, and the people around you. And it's not just in the workplaces, but in our personal lives as well. So stick with us because this is going to be a really, really interesting conversation. So, yes, welcome back, dear listeners to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. As all of you know, this is the space where we have the real conversations, the ones that help you understand yourself a little better so you can live and lead a little more, honestly. And I'm Sana, your host, I listen to my guest today. Well, she's an international speaker, she's founder of BrainShift, she's a leadership coach, certified in brain-based coaching, and also she's an author on leadership and mental health. She helps leaders understand what pressure does to the nervous system, and how that quietly shapes everything: culture, decisions, relationships, and also the kind of leader you become under stress. So, this conversation is for anyone who leads people, whether it's at work, at home, or anywhere in between. Let's get into it and let's welcome our guest, Hannah Kerbin. Hannah, welcome to the show. And it's really an honor having you here with us.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Well, thank you very much for having me. I'm really looking forward to having this dialogue together with you.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Absolutely. Absolutely. Me too. Because let me tell all the listeners, as I mentioned in the intro, this is not just only for uh you know at work or leaders in your workplaces, but it's it's at home. And I think it's for us as well, because I believe, Hannah and listeners, that before leading people, we should we should know, yeah, in I mean, in a good way how we can lead ourselves. Because honestly, stress that unpredictability of life, it is not avoidable. You you cannot avoid unpredictability and and challenges in your life, but you can at least learn how to you know face them better. That's what I believe. And I think that's that's an innate part of the leadership.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Hmm. I can I cannot agree with you. I mean, challenges, we there are there are all different kinds of challenges all around us, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. So, before we get into you know the the science, the biology, the leadership side of all this, it's it's kind of a kind of a personal curiosity. I mean, you have had quite a non-linear path. I think that's an interesting way. But but what do you think? Like uh for you, was it any particular moment or a season, a phase uh where you had this you know realization or this you know green signal that now it's the time that your own nervous system it had been trying to tell you something maybe you weren't you know listening to.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

And and there is actually one specific situation that I would like to bring uh to you, and that is 20 days ago. I mean, it's two decades since, and and I I was then in a situation at work where I had a position that was just the perfect match for me. I was traveling around the world, I was meeting people from all around the globe, and I really did have a possibility to make influence and and really getting my my word heard, and I just loved what I was doing. But there was one thing that that kind of was yeah, it got stuck in me, and I I wanted to do even more, and I had this brilliant idea, so I wanted to present this ID to my manager, and I was preparing for this meeting. I took um days, evenings, weekends to really prepare for this meeting, and then eventually we were there, and and I was entering the room so excited to have this conversation with him. And when it was time for time for me on the agenda, my manager simply stood up and said that I'm sorry, but I don't have any more time. Oh okay, there and I mean my my whole body was like shaking, starting to shake, and I was fumbling, and I was just rushing out in my car, and there I was sitting behind the wheel, steering wheel, and and just shaking, and my tears were flooding down cheeks. And that was a starting point for me being home for six months. And of course, it was not only this this specific meeting, it was a lot of of uh circumstances that was before this. But what happened there and then was that I started to study what was it that really happened with me during that meet meeting at that moment with me and the other ones in that room. And yeah, and and the the insights that I got from from that, I also did study a lot of research. I was reading a lot of research, I was doing a lot of interviews with people in the same situation, and and all those things pointed at the same direction. So I was right I wrote a book that is called the the The Connection Between Leadership and Mental Health. That was also when I really started to shift the way that I was leading myself and by that also leading others.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, I I have so many thoughts in my mind, but one thing I must say, I mean, it's kind of a compliment, but you actually helped me visualize that situation in my mind so beautifully. I mean, it's kind of you know, I I I feel it's not beautiful at all, but then I'm very sure many of our listeners they must have, you know, gone through it's not that you know any manager, their manager, their superior told the exact thing, but maybe, maybe it came from a person that they believed you know they could trust or go to, you know, it's either your workplace or your home, and you get to know, I don't have time for this anymore, you know. It's like it's like this shocking realization. And I also believe, Hannah, that in in this we kind of, I mean, yeah, it's not about overthinking, but still, I mean, let's say if our body, if our body is screaming to us and we are not able to give that time, or maybe our inner self is screaming out loud, listen to me, listen to me. And we are saying, I don't have time for for you know, you, I don't have time to listen to you. I mean, isn't it how you know we as a human we feel when someone says that back to us? Um and I think that's what that's the kind of thought it it kind of you know it came in my mind when I heard those words from you and the entire situation in there.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah, yeah, really. And and and I mean, I I I would I would dare to say that more or less all of us has been in a similar situation, even though it might have not been together with a manager or so on, but we have all felt neglected or rejected, and the feeling of rejection and neglection is actually connected directly to get connected to our nervous system and our survival. We know by fact that our brain is wired to keep us alive, and the easiest way to keep us alive is to keep to is to stay out of threat. We know that. And one of the most threatening things that we can that we can be be facing is to be rejected and neglected. What really happened to me back there at 20 years ago, and when I was rushing out of out of my car was was that I felt neglection and rejection. I was not part of, I was not worthy. And if I would have known myself or my if I would have been more aware of my own signals and and the way that we are responding to that kind of situations, I would have been able to regulate myself in a way that of course I would have felt rejected and neglected, but it would not have had that huge impact on me.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Six months you were in your home, you you yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

I was home for a sick leave for six months, uh 100%. So I did not spend any hour at all at the office for six months, and then I gradually started to come back, and I think it took more or less a year for me to be fully uh back again.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

And and and this is something that too many people are facing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

And Hannah, um because you know, you started exploring this deep down, you went into the research, you took interviews. So I think that gives that gives a very unique lens to understand this, you know, the root cause in there. And something which I also keep noticing, and this is more you know on the leadership, strong leadership, you know, off of discussion, that we almost always describe someone who stays always calm under pressure, who keeps going no matter what, you know, you are resilient, you have that grid, you are always solid. But then do you believe that that is actually strength, or could that story of staying calm sometimes be a way your nervous system, you know, is trying to just protect itself, protect you? Kind of survival mode that you know we have just learned to call composure.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, yeah. I think that that is a really, really interesting question. And and I do believe that there are two two answers to that. One answer that I wish that I could say is the most common one is that we have the breed, that we are there on the edge all the time, and we are in a thrive situation, meaning that we really, really know why we are doing things, and it's something that we are looking forward to, and we feel that we are part of something greater, greater and good, then that would be a benefit for ourselves and our own health. But unfortunately, my answer is that too often, and I don't have the figure here, but I know some figures that that are pointing at 80, maybe up to 90 percent of all the time when we are in this grit mode, that we are in a constant move, that we are in uh in constant performance and so on, that that is based on survival. And we are in survival mode, and that is that is actually something that will impact our health, not only the mental health, but also the body health, the physical health in a very, very high extent. So the first thing that we need to do is to ask ourselves am I in thrive or survive mode? That's a good question. That's that's a big question, Hannah. That's a big and and I do believe that that's the quick answer would probably be for everyone that no uh I'm in a thrive. But then when you start to dig in into it a little bit, then you realize that you are not. And one of the questions that I are are I usually ask three questions, and and the first one is that when did you feel shame and guilt the last time? And then I also ask when did you feel that you had time pressure? And then I also ask, when did you do something because you thought someone else was expecting you to do it? And if you say yes, I did this, I felt this during the past week, then you are more or less as and everybody else.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

But I do question why? Why do you feel guilt? Why do you feel ashamed? You are in time pressure.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

What was it that made you do things because you ex you thought that that someone else was expecting it? And those are the things that when we understand the biological drivers behind our way of acting and reacting, then we can also turn those into positive reactions instead. We can get rid of shame and guilt just by understanding and and and taking firm decisions instead of acting. We can start to have a very, very clear view of what we are doing, our targets, our goals, and then we will not have to have those time pressure because then we can prioritize in a much better way. And the same goes for for this with that you are doing things because someone else is expect you think that someone else is expecting it. If you always have a clear view of why, what is the thing that I'm doing now, what is the what is the next step for this? What is this that what will this action how will that connect to the bigger per pic bigger picture and bigger purpose?

(Cont.) Lead With Your Nervous System, Not Survival Mode, with Hanna Kurman

SPEAKER_00 17:59

You know, because uh we are not just talking about mental health or nervous system, and I mean look at how all of these are beautifully connected, how they are beautifully communicating with each other. I want to bring in a bit of neuroscience in here because I think this is where your work it it really gets interesting. Uh so when not only leader, I mean let's let's just you know consider every one of us, you know, especially because you know we are we are trying to just uh go through those difficult, challenging moments, sometimes maybe listening, you know, maybe trying to take in the expectations and maybe quote unquote perform. When uh we are operating under chronic pressure, what is actually happening in the brick? And how does that start to silently change the way you know we make decisions or we we relate to people, we connect, communicate with them?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

What actually happens when we are in in a survival mode?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Let's keep to that wording just to be a little bit stringuent here. But when we are in a survival mode, meaning that we are doing things that are are connected to outside pressure, that also means that we are in a stress mode. And when we have a stress inside our body, I mean our body and our nervous system is beautifully designed for us to survive. Let's not forget that. So when we are in a stress situation, meaning that we should be able to just grab our babies and run without thinking, that is what what we are that is what the brain and the nervous system is is wired to do. So when we are when we feel a threat or when we are in a situation where we have a pressure, higher pressure, our our amygdala is going to release cortisol. That is a hormone that that is supposed to support us with a higher blood, blood sugar, into the prefrontal cortex. Now we are getting into a little bit more details here, but the prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain that supports us with the cognitive thinking. That is the decision-making machine. And the amygdala is the response, no, no, the the activation response receptor, let's let's call it that. So it will send send it, the cortisol, up to our prefrontal cortex for us to be able to take those quick decisions. The thing is that when we get that blood sugar to our prefrontal cortex to be able to support us with those decisions, that will also make sure that we are narrowing our focus. Because when we when we need to run away from our threats, we don't have time to stand and look at the sides of us and see, okay, who else is here? Let's everyone come along. And what how would you do in this situation? How would you do? No, we don't have time for that when we are in a in a in a threat, uh, threat mode. So we are just running. The same thing happens when we are in that stressed situation and with this additional cortisol that is pantomime. something to our prefrontal cortex that we will narrow our focus. It will also just connecting this this to that we will not have time to s to to stay still and and ask for anyone else's opinions and so on that we will run on old patterns we will run on old patterns we will run on old thinking patterns because it's the nervous system triggering us to do that. Just just concluding this is that what will happen if we t if we base our decisions on very fast, quick thinking old pattern thinking without standing without taking the the time for reflection and ask for the other one's opinions and views as a leader just take it as a leader will your team run with you they might as you are the leader they might just chase you because hey my leader is running so let's run with him or her will they understand why you're running or in what what direction you are running probably not and again the leader the the the thing the most important thing for the leader is to make sure that the team is utilized or the team's abilities and skills experiences knowledge is used as much as possible it's the collective thinking that will take the team further it's it's more like a a physiological aspect I mean probably not a leadership gap or a character flaw but more like a physiological shift.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

And I think um the clarity here and understanding what is actually happening beneath all of you know those reactions or decisions I think uh when we understand that it it stops being about blaming maybe the the situation or what caused it or who caused it and then it starts bringing that you know awareness into you that okay this it this is the what the situation is and let's try to think you know what direction we can go further what we can do. And I think that brings the clarity and that clarity kind of you know it gets communicated to your team as well the people that you're working with.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah and and also yes coming back to what actually happens in in within our nervous system and when we are in in a constant uh fight or flight mode survival mode and with this constantly pumping of uh cortisol and and adrenaline and all those things that will make sure that you in that you your metabolism in your body you will have headaches you will have pain in your back in your body in different situations or in in different parts of your body as well when many people and that is actually including myself as well I I've had a constant pain for for let's say more or less seven eight years I was in a team then that was not really it was not really a good mental situation or it was a dysfunctional team let's call it by that and I could feel that in my body when I shifted from that team to another then also my pain I got rid of my pain so what what I want to say with that is is that no matter if you're a leader or a team member or whoever you just as a person also start to listen to your body do I have pain if I have a pain when does that pain occur do I have it constantly is it more tense in in different situations than in others and so on because that will also give you a hints of what you need to change and I think if if we can I mean I know we are short on time but still I think if we can kind of you know what what I feel what I can realize is that you know whether we lead with our nervous system you know whether we know it or not but I think the question comes to whether we learn its language before you know it speaks loudly enough to stop us.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

So I think that is we all can take away from this this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah I mean you can actually save lives and I I mean that when I say that you can save lives if you start to pay attention to your nervous system and what your nervous system is telling you so yes for me that is is always the starting point whatever you are going to do to start to to kind of yeah listen listen to to the signals that you have and Hannah uh also if if our listeners I mean I know there will be people who are listening right now who would want to go deeper with your work as well and the work that you're doing with brain shift or maybe just follow what you are putting out into the world so how how they can know where they can find you uh the easiest way to find me that's through LinkedIn I'm I'm active there and I always open for conversations so please connect with me on LinkedIn. You can also connect with me through my webpage that is Hannahanakurman.se you can also follow my Instagram account which is brainshift leadership where I I share some insights and thoughts about leadership and and the connection to the nervous system. So either channel you're always welcome to get back to me and yeah let's take it from there.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Absolutely absolutely yes you heard it from our listeners yeah I'll have all the links and details mentioned in the show notes. So find them a trash along with this episode on whichever platform you are listening to Healthy Man Hill podcast right now. And Hannah thank you so much because I I know that 30 minutes is not justified enough because this is such such a vast such a huge topic and huge part of our lives such a fundamental crucial part of our lives but I still really really appreciate being candid sharing your uh experiences and also help us to at least look at our cells our nervous system our brains you know with more compassion and without any judgment thank you very much and thank you for having me and yes listeners thank you for listening to Healthy Mind Healthy Life if something in this episode it connected with you I hope that you let yourself stay with it. Maybe you can journal it down or maybe you can record it or you can just maybe stand in front of the mirror and say it out loud. And if this conversation meant something to you do share it with someone who leads or someone who has been caring more than they are saying out loud. We are all somewhere on this journey and until next time take care of yourselves take care of your mind take care of yourselves and remember healing is not a destination it is a direction until next time this is a hosana I'll catch you in the next episode thank you so much