Leadership Lessons From Hard Places

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Listeners. Think about the most important leadership lessons. What if they didn't come from a boardroom from a best seller or a business school? What if they came from grief rooms? Disaster sites and moments where the only thing that mattered was showing up with your whole self. Well, today we are going to sit with a guest who has lived those rooms and walked away with something rare. What's that? Clarity. Let's go and explore. So welcome back, dear listeners to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I am Sana, your host, and yes, this is the show where we have honest conversations about what it really, really takes to live well and lead well. And let me introduce my guest to all of you. So he's a funeral director, turned disaster responder, turned entrepreneur, who was called to testify before the United States Senate on funeral ethics, and whose book, Lead by Legendary Example, is exactly what it sounds like. Leadership from the inside out. So, Jay, uh listeners, let's welcome our guest, Jay Jacobson. Jay, welcome to the show and I'm I'm really, really honored having you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Sana, it's an honor to be with you. I am excited to spend the next half hour with you and uh share some insights.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Absolutely, absolutely. Now I I kind of intuitively, not intuitively, but I personally feel uh half an hour is not sufficient enough. But still let's let's try to um extract as as much as possible. And Jay, starting with your your journey before we get into the big ideas. Um, I mean this is very interesting. You have worked in spaces most people never enter. Um I I would love to know, our listeners would love to know what was it about those spaces, you know, uh emotionally heavy, there's grief, crisis, uh high, high pressure that actually shaped you as a person before they ever shaped you as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Um

Presence Learned In Grief Rooms

SPEAKER_00 2:21

it's interesting because as a funeral director, we we live at the the junction of of families in crisis, families in grief, and making that connection with them and and having those uh critical conversations, um, having to be fully present and understanding the spoken word as well as the things that are not being said in the room. And so every one of those conversations with a grieving family um becomes training ground in terms of true presence and and really being in the moment uh and and being there for people in in need and in crisis.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

And uh and I I think um if we take this in in the leadership context, I think uh we talk more around vision, execution, hitting targets, decisiveness. Uh, but then you know, I think your experience, Jay, honestly, it kind of gives a very, very different perspective, especially towards leadership. But before trying to understand, yeah, go ahead, Jay. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

We yeah, we look at le leadership um from a completely different uh context than a lot of corporate America. Uh we look at it in in terms of the the human connection uh versus the outcomes of uh corporate America or corporate uh wherever in the world you are. Uh we look at uh things like being present and having integrity and and understanding the vision of the long game and what what we ultimately want to do. Uh we approach it from more of a servant leadership uh perspective where we're walking alongside uh those that are helping us obtain our goals and helping us obtain the outcomes for the families we serve. And and we're constantly in a need to adapt to what the situation is changing uh almost moment by mode moment. And uh our lives uh center a great deal around the phone, and a simple phone call can change everything in just a matter of moments from what we had planned for the day to what's necessary for the day.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

No, that makes sense. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

We we look at the the development of those leadership skills, not as uh a course, but as a lifetime practice. Uh,

Early Training In Dependability

SPEAKER_00 4:57

those are things that are cultivated from a very early on. Uh my first memories are uh being a a paper boy delivering the newspaper early every morning. And the the dependability that train that that uh required, uh being up every morning, being ready, getting that paper out before people had their morning coffee, then getting back and being able to transition and go to school. Uh those were the earliest uh lessons that I had in leadership. And then we take that a little bit further that you know, not only did we deliver the paper in the morning, but then on Thursday evenings we would have to go back and collect the fee for the subscription. And that that process of of having to physically uh meet with my clients to talk with them uh taught me a great deal about presence and uh being with people when they they need to have someone listen uh just to be with them. Um a great deal of of my clients were elderly. And I I'm to this day, I think a lot of the the folks that subscribed to the newspaper didn't do it for the news. They did it for because they knew every Thursday night someone would stop and visit them. And I might be the only visitor that they'd have all week. Um, but we I would take the time to spend a little bit of time with them. Uh a lot of times it would be they would offer me a piece of pie or a game of cards or something else just to to so I would spend a little more time with them and they wouldn't be as uh lonely.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah. And and I think um that that uh that's kind of it's comforting and at the same time I feel a sigh of relief because no matter how hard we see the business world out there, um when you know we have people in there, um it's about emotions. Admit it or not, it's about emotions, it's about empathy, and it's the way, the tone, your words, how you're communicating, how I mean, in fact, your body language. Because I think that is something many, many uh of the business owners they would probably not consider uh vital enough to think about or or you know to kind of um learn.

Why Human Connection Matters More Now

SPEAKER_00 7:23

That that's uh exactly the right point. Uh when when we start looking at what the workforce in the next 20 to 40 years is gonna going to need, it's gonna need people with those uh personnel skills to be able to connect with others. And we're we're living in an age when with AI and with the internet that knowledge is available to anyone. So we don't have to hire people for their ability for knowledge. We need to hire people for their ability to connect with others. And the the greatest portion of those skills that uh people are are learning happen between age 13 and 18. Uh, when they're they're looking at adults and trying to figure out their place in the world and trying to understand what it means to be an adult versus a child, um, that's when they start to learn to read the the tone of voice, they learn to read the facial expressions, they learn to lead uh to read the body language behind what's being said. And now that's exactly the time when we hand these young people a cell phone. So now their world goes from watching adults to watching a tiny screen, and their communication is reduced down to text or emails. And so they lose that opportunity uh as they're growing uh to naturally or organically learn that skill of reading people's expressions, reading is what's not being said in the room as well as what is being said.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, yeah. That's powerful. And and uh especially the the one that the age uh the age range 13 to 18 uh kind of you know are the formative years when um we get to learn about um all of these special tracting, communicating. I think that is something I actually honestly, I I'll be very frank, Jay. I actually didn't know that, but it absolutely makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Well, I've I've done a lot of research because I do a lot of training with with people new people into the workforce in our industry and and trying to help them understand how to connect with people. And and in our profession, we only have about three minutes when we sit down with a family to make that connection. And if you don't have those skills to read the body language and and the people skills it takes, then you're spending the rest of the time you're working with the greeting family trying to make that connection. And it never quite gels. But if we could teach these young people how to engage, how to really pay attention to what's going on, then they can be successful and and they can understand the the nonverbal communication as well as the the verbal and and the written communications they have to process.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Absolutely. And Jay, uh let's also um I think this is such an important part. Um because you have spent uh time in some of the some of the highest pressure environments imaginable. And I personally believe, Jay, uh sometimes you know, these high pressure moments, they kind of become so much instrumental in shaping our character and and the way we think, the way we uh behave, or the way we react, the way we look at, you know, especially these very sensitive moments. Um, so I would love to know from you. Um like it's not just about how you handle pressure, but how what you noticed was happening underneath it in the people around you. Like, what are the deeper patterns that show up in leaders when things are getting actually hard?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Well,

Disaster Response When Everything Changes

SPEAKER_00 11:23

imagine you're you're 28 years old, uh, you're working in a funeral home, you're toward the end of the day, and the phone rings, and you pick up that phone, uh, and it's and it's your home office. Um, and they're telling you that they were just contacted by an airline company, that uh an airline is about to crash near your uh city, and that they need you to be in a mindset and to be ready to go and to serve the people. There are about 300 people on board this aircraft. And you know that right now those 300 people are alive, and very soon, in all likelihood, all 300 people are going to perish. Well, that's exactly what happened to me on a Tuesday afternoon. Uh, we were just winding down for the day, and I take that phone call, and it changes everything. You start thinking about the the lives that are gonna be affected, not only the lives that are going to be lost, but those survivors back home that have no idea that their world is about to be turned upside down. Uh, you think about the investigators that are gonna have to come and investigate the crash site. Um, you think about the volunteers that are gonna have to step up and help process everything to assist those that are taking care of those who uh don't make it. Um that was a very real scenario that we had. We had um a United Flight uh 232 that crashed in Sioux City, Iowa. And 185 people of that 300 people on board miraculously survived, but we were charged with caring for the other 112 that did not. And so as we arrived on the scene and just watching 150 different funeral directors converge on one area, and the leadership that rises to the top, people that that have spent their whole lives um living in leadership, living the principles of being available and understanding the the logistics of the long game, uh, come into that moment and and rise to the surface and help get things organized and help get things done in a way that is professional, that's caring, um, that honors those that didn't make it. Uh to be part of that team and to be part of that leadership that that organized and and uh executed uh the plan to care for those 112 people and return them back to their families was an eye-opening experience. Um we we were in a situation that was completely foreign to all of our our normal day-to-day uh lives. Um normally we have our own facilities, we have uh running water, we have equipment, we have all the supplies that we need. And all of a sudden we're having to set up uh basically um a funeral home and um uh an embalming suites inside of an airport hangar that has no running water, uh, that has none of the the equipment or the the supplies that we need. And to uh secure all of those things and get them on site and and find a way to process to even though we don't have everything we need, uh, was where you see real leadership come to the forefront.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Exactly. Exactly. And I think in those moments, it can be very, very challenging to manage your own emotions because sometimes because you are you are kind of managing everything in there, you're managing the situation, you're managing, you are responsible for honoring the the souls of the lost lives. You are also managing logistics, you're doing everything, you have a team as well. I think it's it's kind of the real, real um test of one's character and of course leadership as well.

Carrying Grief After The Work

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, and and funeral directors on a daily basis, we step up to that kind of pressure on a smaller scale. We put aside all of our our own personal feelings because many times in our hometowns uh we're burying our friends, we're burying our our uh neighbors, uh, even family members. And for the moment, when we're sitting with the family and helping them walk through this process, we have to put aside our own grief. We have to wait and grieve privately later uh without the benefit of the support system that we're helping the very families create and surround them around to be there when they need uh support, whether it be through a visitation or a memorial service or a funeral service. Um, we provide that mechanism. But when it comes to the funeral director, that mechanism isn't there after the fact. Uh, we have to process that alone. We have to process it in our own way. And after the the air disaster in Sioux City, um, it changed a lot of us. Um, I came back, I was not able to re-engage with uh my family, to re-engage with my profession uh or my community for quite some time. So uh I had to process through all of that to get my my head back on and be able to step back into life, so to speak. Um, but through my faith, through my family, and through some very good friends, I was able to do that and re-engage and re-enter into the profession that that I love so much.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Absolutely. Yeah, that's that's really commendable, Jay. Honestly.

Six Pillars And A Mentorship Legacy

SPEAKER_01 17:01

And let's talk about your book as well. Your book, your work, it point toward something you call leading by legendary example. I love that phrase, honestly, Jay, because um, this is not about perfection, but I think it is something about you actually live. So what what does it look like as I daily practice?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Well, one of the pillars that I that is an essential part of leading is mentorship. And that goes beyond just just leading somebody. It's a matter of training their mind, helping them to understand the importance of the work that they do, uh, the importance of uh the other pillars of integrity and presence and vision, um, adaptability. Those things are so important. But if you only do it for yourself, if you only do it for the short time that you're engaged in actively leading people, you haven't built a legacy. Um it takes a willingness to impart the wisdom, the knowledge uh onto the next generation and to thoughtfully uh curate that knowledge so that that they become the leaders of tomorrow and they're equipped with the skills that they need to be leadership uh legendary leaders themselves. Now, the book itself, it never really sat down to write a book when I started it. Uh it was born out of tragedy in itself, uh, in the fact that uh nearly two years ago, my wife went in for a routine surgery that went terribly wrong. And from that time forward, over the next 18 months, we had um 12 major surgeries. And uh they had to occur at a specially hospital three and a half hours from where we lived. So as the doctors are coming in and explaining what's going on and what the plan is, I started a document for my two daughters, uh shared documents so they would understand what the doctors are saying. They could be involved in some of the decision making. Um I started uh including in some of the rationale behind the decisions we were making and how we were making them. And um as I got further and further into this document, it became more of a letter to my two grandsons uh to help them understand what this kind of uh crisis decision making looks like. And and the the essence of uh the personality traits and the the things that you need to have with practiced before you get to that point. And when I got all said and done, uh it became this book. Uh I was able to get in front of a very good publisher who helped me structure it in such a way that it um identified these six pillars. Um, it identified how and walked through how we arrived at those pillars and and the situations I was in, put into throughout my life that helped reinforce and help me teach or help me learn those those principles. Um and when we got done, uh my publisher said, now I I would like to talk to you about putting a workbook together that that will allow teams to have a course of of study that they can start building this kind of leadership themselves. And I told him, I said, I'm willing to do that, but I don't want it to be a standalone book. I want it to be included as part of this book. So those who get this book will will notice the first two-thirds of it are are the stories, the the situations that led up to the the development of the the pillars that we discuss, um, how those came to be, uh they're illustrated in ways that are in real life situations that were real life situations lived by me. Uh and then the last third of it is that leadership guide to help you build your own strong teams within your own organizations.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

No, and I I I believe that uh it's not about just doing more, but um it's about doing what matters with with more intention. And I I really connected with what you mentioned to the publisher that you know not just a standalone book of workbook, but it has to be included with this. Um and I think uh that's a very different kind of you know leadership overall, if I can talk. I think very different kind of leadership than most of us were taught.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

And healthy leaders have have strong vision, they have a strong sense of uh what their moral compass is, what their their values are, and healthy people are like have the same, uh have a very good understanding of who they are, what's important to them, where their hard lines are, with things that they won't cross, uh, what they want to achieve out of life. And that's part of what we help young people do is to help discover that. Help understand, you know, who you are and where you want to go. Uh, if you understand that, you can make decisions that drive you toward that. Uh, if you have not established that, you're kind of driving down the road without GPS or without a map. Uh, it'll go wherever you, you know, it takes you without purpose.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Absolutely, right. Beautiful, beautiful. Uh Jay,

Where To Find The Book

SPEAKER_01 22:35

so before we wrap up, if our listeners they would like to get a hold of your book and they would also like to connect with you, what is the best medium for that?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Well, as far as the book, it's available on Amazon. It's also available on Apple. It's available in two formats, either in uh uh printed form or in audiobook. Uh, if they would like to reach out and learn more about um me and and my organization, uh they can visit my website, which is JacobsonProstaff.com. Uh, or they can seek me out on LinkedIn uh or Facebook.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

That's free. That's fine, and listeners. Uh yes, I'll have all the links mentioned in the show notes. Uh and honestly, listeners, I think um this was one of those conversations that doesn't let you off easy. And I think that's exactly what we needed today. And Jay, thank you so, so much. Uh for I really mean it because uh uh yeah, I mean, this was a very kind of a unique and different conversation, especially when it comes to leadership.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Well, thank you for hosting it.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

And yes, thank you, listeners, for being such a wonderful part of Healthy Man, Healthy Life. If something Jay said stayed with you today, sit with it, share it with someone who needed to hear it. And yes, if you haven't yet, subscribe, follow us so you never, never, ever miss a conversation like this one. I'm your host, Sana, and take care of yourselves. We'll talk soon.