The Hidden Cost Of Yes

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Listeners, you'll agree with me that so many times we have said yes, but deep down we wanted to say no. Or maybe I'm so sorry, but it's not possible. But and it it feels like this, you know, a battle going on within you. You want to say no, but you can't say it. You feel that you know it's polite on the outside. I mean, yeah, there's a kind of a yes that sounds polite on the outside, but on the inside, it is quietly costing you something. Your time, your energy, your sense of self. And most of us, honestly, you know, listeners, we were never really taught how to say no without guilt riding shotgun. So today we are talking about a very different kind of rebellion. It's not the loud kind, it's the mindful kind. The kind that begins with one honest pause. So, hi, and welcome back to Healthy Mind Healthy Life. I am Sana, and this is the space where we talk about real everyday mental health without overwhelm. Today I'm joined by Maggie Rombach, a leadership and transitions coach with over 20 years across the private and humanitarian sectors, including time at Proctor and Gamble, UNICEF, and the ICRC. Now, let me tell you, listeners, Maggie knows what it is like to push hard, you know, hit a wall, and then you have to like rebuild from a quieter, truer place. So by the end of this episode, I'm very sure you will walk away with a very different relationship with the word no and a softer, stronger way of holding your own ground. So, Maggie, welcome to Healthy Mind Healthy Life. It is so good to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Thanks so much. It's a real pleasure to be here with you today.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Thank you so much, Maggie. And I hear I I know this is such such uh I'm very sure this is such a um quote unquote popular or very common, very common uh situation or a topic, but uh it's very rare that we honestly talk about it and honestly we kind of think like, yeah, there are different ways. Everybody's telling me to create boundaries and politely say no, but there are some very legitimate situations where we kind of we are like hanging by the sword and it

Defining Mindful Rebellion

SPEAKER_00 2:40

feels like you know you have to choose the better between the worst. But before we go anywhere deep, um I would love to start uh Maggie with this phrase mindful rebellion. So, what's the first image of uh feeling that comes up for you personally when you know you hear the this phrase, um, like the human one?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So for me, the term mindful rebellion, which is really the mission I'm on, I want to spread this mindful rebellion. It's kind of this little contradiction in it on purpose. You know, the rebellion might feel a bit more rebellious, high energy, and the mindful bit is more calm and more reflected. And the whole point is there's a bit of both. So I'm a people pleaser, I always say I'm a people pleaser gone rebel energy. So as you described, saying no, that's been really tough for me because I felt like I let other people down and you know, all these stories we tell ourselves. And then I learned when we embrace a little bit that rebel energy, you know, when we dare to say no, when we speak up, and you know, when I say rebellion, I'm not talking about anarchy. I'm I'm talking about this rebellion against this old script, the stories in our mind. You know, it's a soft rebellion. And that's why I added in also this element of mindfulness, because that's the real point. It's setting your boundaries, but setting them in a kind, mindful, assertive way. So that's how I try to bring these contradictions together and together create something powerful that can help us to manage our lives in a more balanced way.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

I think that it you know that balanced way, it kind of you know signifies uh the importance of here because now I I believe that uh even if you do all the all the meditation, all the inner work, life is life is very unpredictable. And you know, we are taught that you shouldn't uh you shouldn't have always this rebellion um you know way of dealing with everything, you know, especially in our professional lives, you know, we are taught that you shouldn't ask many any kind of you know questions which is going to displease your superior, or you shouldn't say no, say yes to everything. But then, you know, and even in personal lives also, um, you know, through my own journey also, I've been seeing that that saying yes, it actually created a lot more problems for me than either, you know, maybe I could have, you know, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't have said no, but at least there was a different way, uh, maybe an indirect or a more polite way of you know that I'm politely saying no. So there are ways, there are possibilities, but um, you know, our kind of, you know, our mind kind of reacts in that fight or flight mode, and we just say, okay, fine, yes, yeah, we'll see. Yeah. For the time being, just to make the things, you know, peaceful and calmer, let me just say yes, so that you know, any kind of um argument or back and forth or to and fro doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Yeah, and you know, I I first of all, I think what you're saying, it's so true and it so resonates with me. And I think there is also a cultural element to that because I think in different cultures it's more or less. So I'm German. Actually, in German culture, it's pretty accepted to speak your mind and to push back. So for me, it was maybe more my personality as a people pleaser where it was was harder. But then I also would like to pick up on something you said that it, you know, you say yes, but then it made things more complicated. And what I learned is, you know, we kind of assume that saying no might create trouble one way or another. And what I learned through, you know, just testing it, you know, just say no sometimes and say it in a kind way, in a disciplined way. And you realize actually when it helps more clarity on both sides, when the expectations are clear, often people are even grateful for a no. I mean, and I, you know, we're talking about constructive no, you know, it's not just like no, I don't do that, but perhaps it's no, I can do that tomorrow, or this will take me two weeks, or I can do this, but then I'd have to drop something else. Actually, that helps everybody because then our managers they have a good understanding of what is feasible to deliver.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 100%. And you're absolutely right, uh, Maggie, that it's it's uh there's a cultural component in here. There's definitely a cultural component in here because in India, I mean, yeah, maybe it differs from generation to generation. But if I look back at my generation or the previous generations, um, I think it's very rare that we have been taught to um raise questions or giving that having that more clarity and also providing clarity to others as well. It's like there is some kind of facade or layer, and then you have to go round and round, and then maybe you have to try to figure out what actually is the is the matter here. And most of the times we do not even try to look at that exact you know root cause matter. So it kind of you know just goes in limbo. That's it. End of the discussion, end of the question. But anyway, anyway, Maggie, uh let's try to explore more, you know, about the mindful

Boundaries As Lines Not Walls

SPEAKER_00 8:30

rebellion. Um, and I also want to kind of you know uh put a very common misconception about especially this word boundaries, uh, because boundaries often get framed as walls, you know, it's like you're pushing people away now. But the way uh you you described that mindful rebellion, it it definitely feels almost the opposite. So, what do you think, Meggie, is the biggest, you know, most common misconception you see people caring about boundaries, especially the ones who are already kind. I mean, they are already giving, but you know, deep down they're exhausted.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

You know what came up first when I listened to you was actually a good book I wrote about educating kids. I think it was positive discipline or something like that. Because it talked about boundaries also with kids. You know, what we tend to do with kids is we we try to set boundaries, rules, restrictions like you shouldn't do this, or it's Sunday morning, don't speak loudly. And and what it's what it what they suggest in the book is to make it more about your own boundary, you know, to say, I am it's Sunday morning, I'm tired right now. So right now I need a quiet morning. And then it's it's not about the kid's behavior, it's about my boundary and my need in that case. So maybe that's not the best example. So I think that's the first thing, as you're saying, and I really like the image, it's not a wall, it's basically just a clear line that is drawn on paper that says I can do this and I cannot do something else. So the biggest misconception, I would say, is that fear that when you set the boundary, something bad will happen. And bad in the sense of maybe your manager thinks you're lazy, or maybe they say it's not possible, or you know, all these variations. And I can give you one concrete example of um situation at work that really helped me. You know, so so I was reporting to a very senior colleague, and his assistant kept on scheduling with me meetings after 5:30. And we had even an agreement in our department that that's outside of core working hours. And I kept on saying no, but I felt really bad about it. Because that's the other thing. Even when you manage to say no, then you feel guilty, you feel like all these things that you shouldn't have said no. So at one point I sat down with him and I said, Look, I want you to be aware of this. We have this this etiquette, this principle that 5:30 is, you know, the hours where officially you can stop working if you've done your eight hours. And your assistant keeps on scheduling that meeting with me. And I keep on declining it, but it makes me feel really stressed. And you know, he thanked me for it, and he said, Okay, I get it. I schedule meetings with you in another slot, and I will also ask my other colleagues in the team what their preferred time slot is, and I was like, Wow, I was really threatening that conversation, and in the end, you know, it was actually a very factual conversation with a clear solution.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

No, and I think I think uh that definitely requires a lot of courage because you're not only um you know going to and sit there, talk with that person to make them understand, but also you are now overriding your fear in there, you are taking a further step because you yourself had that fear that how will that person quote unquote judge me or think about me, that maybe I don't understand the seriousness of this meaning, that's why I'm declining it. But no, when the contract says that yes, after 5:30, uh we cannot have any meetings, we don't have any meetings, or we don't do any kind of activities which are in those working hours outside of a specific working hour, then it's very clear. So I think that actually works the very best when you see the picture in the long, you know, in the in the in the bigger at the bigger level in the long run, in the grand scheme of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Absolutely. And another thing that helps me, I'm a big fan of nonviolent communication, you know, this concept that was was coined by Rosenberg. Because non-violent communication, it avoids finger pointing. Because I think that's often also where we where we get or we become hesitant to speak up, is when we feel like we might be seen as controversial or you know, contrarian. And nonviolent communication is a very powerful tool to remain factual, to base it on your own needs and come with a clear ask of what you need. And that makes it easier for the other side not to go into the defensive, but to start looking for solutions. So I feel that's a formula that helps me a lot, particularly for sensitive topics, not for every little discussion,

Workplace No That Builds Trust

SPEAKER_01 13:50

but for sensitive topics that helps me to bring up things that would have been harder otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Absolutely. Absolutely. And also, Maggie connected with this, you know, overriding that fear when you go and when you went and you talked with that person, then you realize that it was kind of you know feeling threatening for you. Um there's usually something older going on for many people out there. So from your own journey, from your work with leaders, what are the deeper patterns that quietly drive people to keep overgiving long, you know, even after their body is asking them to stop?

SPEAKER_01 14:31

I mean, you probably it's hard to generalize, but what I've observed is, you know, we're, you know, it's really rewarded by society in many places, you know, this kind of perform climbing the ladder, you know, rise to the top. You know, it's you know, it's exciting, it's you know, maybe intellectually fulfilling. But that also comes with this expectation to always deliver, to always be reliable, to, you know, with a lot of those, this is what is done here, or this is uh what success looks like in this organization or in this country or in this society. And and this, at least speaking from my own story, I mean, I'm a very reliable person, I'm also ambitious and high achieving or high performing. You know, I want to I care about my work and I want to do it well. And that can be a trap because then it's also harder to say no because you don't want to let down people, you still want to deliver the work, and then you you think that if you say yes, you can keep on doing that. And ironically, often that makes it harder because you get distracted, you do too many things. So saying no to the unimportant things might allow you to focus on the more important things and ultimately even perform better because you can get good quality work done. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

I mean, I think um the

Why High Achievers Overgive

SPEAKER_00 16:10

there's something in very something so important in what you are saying, Maggie, because you know, a lot of people uh probably they they aren't bad at boundaries, maybe they are just very, very good at meeting other people's expectations, and uh definitely, you know, um that definitely requires a different kind of you know approach, a different kind of solution in here. So that brings me uh to to you know a kind of solution-based uh question in here, Maggie. So let's say for listeners hearing this, they are quietly nodding. I'm very sure many of our listeners are quietly nodding right now, but maybe you know they don't even know where to start. Um what's one or maybe you know multiple based on your experiences, like mindful, doable approach that you would offer them, you know, something they can begin practicing this this week, you know, even if they they are running on empty.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

So I work with a method that is uh that has actually five steps. And of course, in this week it's probably too much to do five, but just very quickly, it really starts with getting clear, like really some self-reflection, because often it all starts with awareness. You know, this is so automated patterns, we might not even realize we're doing it. And then, and that's probably one I would encourage people to start with, particularly on boundaries, is you know, to just you know, getting clear where the limits actually are. Because sometimes we didn't think about that consciously is that, you know, in my case, I wanted to leave at 5:30 because I have a small child and I needed to pick him up. Yes.

Small Experiments To Practice No

SPEAKER_01 17:55

For other people, that might be different. They might be actually happy to work a bit later because they prefer to get go for run in the mornings. I don't know. Everybody's different, but getting really clear what your own boundaries are, and then do one small test where you reinforce them when you feel scared about it. Like one no in a meeting or one not now, next week. And then just see what happens and treat it as an experiment. You know, often we try something and we give a lot of meaning to it. So if it's a no or if something happens, then we go like, oh my god, I shouldn't have done that. And I encourage people to take almost like a scientist approach. This is an experiment. I experiment to say no to this or not now, or whatever I choose to do. And then I just see what happens. And okay, maybe I get a reaction that is not ideal today. It also depends on the other person. So really be a little bit playful with it, and then just try again with a different person, or try again a different day, or try again a slightly different answer, and just keep on doing that for a week or two and see what's happening. And my bet is what will happen that people might be surprised how often people understand and are actually okay with it. And the more little wins, little positive experience you have, the more you build your confidence. And then at one point you feel a bit less scared or less worried about it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

So, Maggie, yes, uh, you are absolutely, you know, something that I'm very sure our listeners will also understand that it doesn't happen overnight. It also shouldn't happen overnight. Um, because you know, this is not about becoming you know, someone harder or um it's it's I think it's about becoming someone clearer uh and clarity, you know, especially in the body. I think it's it's it it is something where a real no begins.

Holding Boundaries When Others Push

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Um and and last big one, uh Maggie, before we wrap up, um, I know we have five minutes, but um, you know, change is one thing, but then sustaining it, it's a completely different ball game. You know, people often start setting boundaries, um, they may get pushback, they may have some really uh sometimes you know bad experiences because not everyone will receive that uh you know equally. Uh they may feel guilty and then quietly slide back. Yeah, this is not working out, it's uh affecting me, so let's not do this. So, from your own experience and your work, how do you help someone hold their ground when the world around them has gotten very used to you, their old yes?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, so it's as you say, it's a gradual process. So I think there are two sides to it. So one is my own mindset and how I deal with it. Because you know, if people are used to you always saying yes, they will be surprised if you start saying no. So they probably have to readjust themselves. So their reaction might not be excited at the beginning, but I'm sure that will it will be very respectful over time, but this respect will happen over time. So the first one is is to really keep going at it, to not give up too quickly. And that's where this experimental mindset helps. So even when maybe one person reacts in a weird way, and also that's always about both people, because I might say no to somebody, and that person just happened to have had a really bad day and becomes really grumpy and has nothing to do with my no. It just has to do with that was maybe this famous last drop in that person's day that made the person react in a certain way. So that would. We wanted to not give up too quickly, to really keep going and to keep adjusting. Because sometimes, yes, we might not get the noise of our reply right. Then you know we keep on trying and we keep on adapting. And over time, that will change. But then also to really commit yourself to keep going. And and what helps there is to also, for instance, track yourself. Like I would encourage listeners to say, okay, I'm going to try this for the next two weeks at work. So that's only five working days. And then really kind of have a mini checklist where you go, like, did I do it or did I not do it? Because when we don't hold ourselves accountable, chances are that we just forget. You know, it's not, you know, we just do this, we're busy doing other things. And then there's four weeks down the line and we still haven't even tried.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Makes absolutely makes sense. Absolutely makes sense. And uh, Maggie, first of all, thank you so much for this grounding and really, really helpful conversation. Yeah, it may not uh have all the answers to all the questions, but I think you know it does provide listeners uh a very approachable and you know, at least you know, simple starting

Where To Find Maggie And Closing

SPEAKER_00 23:20

point. Um, because yes, it is not easy and it's easier said than done. So if our listeners uh they would like to, you know, further learn more about your work or connect you know with you and also listen to your podcast as well, what what are the best ways?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

So that's then there are three ways at the moment. Because I'm actually redoing my website. I mean, I have one, but it doesn't look amazing at the moment. So I would suggest either find me on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn, then, as you mentioned, and maybe you can put it in the show notes, I have my own podcast. It's play it by your rules. So a lot of it has to do with boundaries. And then lastly, I just launched a brand new assessment. It's really a super quick, free three-minute assessment that helps people to see if and where they're stuck across a bit the dimensions we talked about, directions, energy, mindset, and and act. So that one is a great place to for people, even if they're curious, to just try it out to see where they're at, and and in the results, you get some immediate small steps where people could get started depending on where they're most stuck.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Super. So, listeners, I'll make sure those links are in the episode notes. So anyone who feels called can reach out. And Maggie, thank you so much for this conversation. And uh to all the listeners, thank you for spending this half hour with us. If anything that Maggie shared, tugged at you, even just gently, that's worth listening to. You don't have to overhaul overhaul your whole life this week, but you just have to start with one honest pause, one smaller yes to yourself, one quieter rebellion. So take care of your mind, take care of your life, and I'll catch you in the next episode. Thank you so much.