Adrenaline Careers And The Real Cost

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Dear listeners, there are certain professions that run on adrenaline and call it normal. The law is one of them. You spend years l learning to fight other people's battles until one day the cost of doing that quietly catches up with you. And what looks like a career problem turns out to be the some to be something um much deeper that has been waiting for your attention. So hey listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I'm your host, Avik, and today my guest, please welcome Dev Albrecht. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Amazing, amazing. And dear listeners, before we develop the TV to the discussion, I'd cry still after introduce with Dev. So Dev is here to talk about uh lawyer burnout, what healthy conflict actually looks like, and how to stay grounded as a person when life puts you through the kind of transition that pulls everything up by the roots. So uh I'll not take much of a time, dear listeners. Let's get

What A Real Day Off Looks Like

SPEAKER_00 1:18

started. And Dave, welcome again. And so before we go in, Dave, like uh, if you can uh share with us, like um what does a real day off look like for you now? Like uh not the productive kind, but the actual kind when uh where nobody is asking anything of you and you have nothing to prove to yourself either.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah, yeah. Great question. Um, by that definition, I don't think I have days off because I have two little kids. So there is always somebody asking something um uh of me or or in you know in some way. But uh, you know, I we we have two young boys, uh four and seven years old, and we uh my wife and I homeschool them, so they're we're with them a lot of the time, um, which is great. It it's really how I want to be spending my days away from work, uh, from traditional work. It's still it's still work raising kids, but it's a very different version of it. Um and you know, our I I guess I could answer that. I we're leaving in a couple days. We we bought a van last year, uh, and so we we do a lot of camping. And uh that that's my ideal day off is being out in wilderness somewhere with with my family and uh just being being in nature.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Good.

Why Burnout Is Misunderstood

SPEAKER_00 2:49

So I I want to uh start with a kind of misconception also. Like I see all the time, especially in lawyers, founders, doctors, anyone whose job is uh to kind of absorb other people's pressure. So um like when people hear lawyer burnout, they picture kind of exhaustion. Uh the long hours, too many cases, uh not enough sleep. But um, the kind of burnout you have lived through is I'd say uh much deeper than that. Um so what does the world get wrong about? Uh what is actually breaking down inside a person in a uh high conflict profession?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah, that's a really, really great question. And the reason it's a good question is because burnout is this umbrella term that we overuse, in my opinion. Uh it's a it's a term that um I mean, you know, the English language has many shortfalls, and and one is that we don't we oftentimes don't have uh words that are more nuanced about these types of experiences. And so, first of all, burnout is the metaphor, um and it's not real. When when we say I'm burned out, you're not actually burned out. You're not there's not like a actual fire burning you from the outside, the inside out. That's not what's really happening. And anytime we're speaking in metaphors, there's enormous opportunity for miscommunication because metaphors mean different things to different people. And so burnout's a great example of that. Uh, someone may use burnout for like the definition you just used, which is too many hours, not enough sleep, too many cases. Um, that's a bur that's certainly a version. Uh, someone may also use burnout who is struggling with perfectionism and is just constantly kind of obsessing over their work product. And that gets to be to a point of burnout. Um, what I experienced was a misalignment with my core values and what I was doing every day at work. Um, and that's a type of burnout. So, you know, again, it's this it's this umbrella term that really doesn't uh specifically speak to the individual's experience. And that's that's a problem, you know, just because we all use that term rather flippantly and it gets applied all the time, but we then lose sight of what that individual's experience actually is. Um, and that can have the the effect of either making the person's experience kind of bigger or more heavy than it actually is, or the reverse, where someone's having a really big intense experience and you say, oh, well, that's just burnout, and it kind of undermines or devalues what they're actually experiencing. So that is it's a it's a great question. And um I I think um I think I answered it, but but to be to be clear, I mine was a type of burnout that really had to do with uh the way I was showing up in the world as a lawyer day to day and the way I was helping my clients um really didn't align, I have learned, with how I want to contribute to the world and how I want to be showing up and the example I want to be setting for my kids.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And um definitely, I mean, uh obviously like when you when you um uh like uh I mean the hours are not

Anxiety And The High Low Cycle

SPEAKER_00 6:36

really the kind of story, the cases are not really the story. So, what was actually breaking down inside you that the workload was just making kind of louder, like uh I'd say the patterns, the inherited stories about success, the things that had been forming since long before you uh became a lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, I my story, my family, uh laws in my family. My grandpa was a judge, my dad is a lawyer. It was just kind of what I always uh it's what I wanted to do. I wasn't forced into it, but but it was also kind of this inherited, you know, uh thing. Um, and so you know, it wasn't until after I got out and started practicing that I really started experiencing this immense amount of anxiety. Um anxiety is another word similar to burnout. It's it's not a metaphor, but it's an umbrella term that gets used for I think uh a very broad range of experiences, you know, that are all very unique. And so um I was having this kind of uh just deep anxiety every day, you know, in the work I was doing. And it was in my stomach and it was very physical. My body, I I had all these kind of physical symptoms related to it. And um, you know, one of the things that really wore me down was the up and downs of the work, uh, the emotional up and downs. So you'd have, you know, with sometimes within a single day, you'd go from like, you know, getting an order from a judge where you win emotion and then then you get yelled at by a client, you know, or or you lose emotion, or you know, and the there'd be these extreme and there are wins and losses. And and so, you know, in the legal profession, when you're you know, when everything's about winning, the losses really sting really bad. And they and you take them very personally, even though a lot of times it has nothing to do with you, it's just about the facts of your case or the law. Um, but it's hard to not make it about yourself and feel like it's something you did wrong. So that was that was really exhausting, those kind of real highs and lows um all the time. That that was exhausting. And then there was this broader pattern, um, which I didn't see. I was talking to someone the other day about how I think it took me, you know, I practiced for 10 years and um I litigated for 10 years. And it took, you know, it took five, six years to until I was really comfortable doing the work. And I and I had kind of gotten over that initial hump of learning what I'm doing. And once I did that, I think I begun, I began to see more clearly um what was actually happening within the system because you're no longer focused on yourself and trying to perfect all of these skills. And as things become easier at work, then you start looking around and being like, wait a second, like what am I really doing here? And uh these patterns emerged primarily of clients' expectations. So they come into the legal system expecting vote justice, and everyone's got a slightly different version of what that means for them. And a lot of it has to do with uh TV or movie type experiences. They expect they're gonna get this day in court where the other person, there's this big aha moment, and everybody, you know, oh we can't believe they said that. And the judge yells at the person and they get their, you know, their day, you know, with this glorious victory, which doesn't usually happen. Um and uh and they also come in really expecting to be seen and heard and acknowledged, and they they want the system to you know acknowledge what they went through. And that's not what this system, at least in the US, uh, and and I think any system that's based on the English common law type system,

Client Expectations And System Trauma

SPEAKER_01 10:55

it doesn't provide that. Um it provides monetary compensation, and that's about it. And so at the end of the day, I I was doing employment law, and so it was representing employees who had been discriminated against or harassed or, you know, had wages stolen, that kind of stuff. And, you know, people would leave with a hopefully with a check more often than not. And um, but the company just kind of gets to wash their hands and walk away, and nothing really happens to them. And that troubled people because you know, they didn't get they didn't get seen. The company denied it the whole time, and the company calls them a liar, and and then one day the insurance company writes them a check and the whole thing ends. And um, not only do they not get what they expected, but the actual legal system itself can be fairly traumatizing because you're uh you're telling your story, and you have this other side who's telling you you're fabricating the whole thing, and that you are the worst employee they've ever experienced, probably the worst employee on the face of the planet. And you know, they make up all this stuff and they have this on their own narrative. And so then the client starts kind of it almost feels like gaslighting. They're like, Am I going crazy? Did that actually happen to me? I all I did, all I wanted was them to acknowledge this and not do it to someone else. And so it it's very confusing for the mind and the brain, and a lot of people leave kind of worse off, in my opinion, from a from a mental health standpoint. I mean, we might be able to get them some financial compensation, and maybe that helps in some areas, but a lot of times I think even if they don't know it, they leave in a worse place than when they came to see us. And that pattern I I was deeply uncomfortable with.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Got it, definitely. And um if I may also ask, is this that um like the practical way? I mean, right, uh, you have lived through what you called an existential crisis. Um the kind that does not just rearrange your calendar, but rearranges your sense of who you are. So the people listening are going through their own versions of that right now, like devos, identity shifts, um faith crisis, career ruptures. So, what is the practice that has actually kept you grounded through um that kind of transition?

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yeah.

Mindfulness Plus Nature As Grounding

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Well, um, you know, I'm I'm there's a lot of things. Um I I have a fairly consistent, you know, mindfulness practice. So I've been meditating for 15 years or so. That that's helpful. Um you know, that said, um you know, meditation's really great, but it it um this is obvious, but it doesn't fix anything. You know, maybe it's maybe it's not obvious to people who aren't doing it regularly, but it's not intended to like solve problems or fix what you're experiencing, it's just to be to be in it and be with it and just kind of experience the flow of life and and be present for all of the emotions that come up. And so I think a lot of people start meditating or when they first start and they're like, well, I'm still stressed out. You know, all these things are yeah, well, yeah, that's it's life. Um and you know, I think the thing that really, really keeps me grounded, which I've already referenced as being in nature. Um, you know, when I can get out on a river or in the woods or up in the mountains or out in the desert, I I live in a in a place that I'm very fortunate to have access to all of those things. Um, you know, the quiet the peace and the solitude and just the uh the realness of of nature, you can't beat it. You can't for grounding you into reality and keeping you aware of your insignificance in the universe and you know, just kind of uh what life is all about. Uh there's nothing, there's no better medicine to me than than just uh being being out there in nature. So that really uh is is key for me. Um, you know, I think that there's also probably I also just love being in nature. So some people don't like doing that, which is obviously fine. And and so there's maybe a deeper piece there of just um doing what you love, yeah, and making sure that you set time aside for that every day. Um there's this great quote that's you know, how we spend our how we spend our days is how we spend our lives, is how we live our lives. And so I think a lot of us sometimes are in this place of like, you know, you're trying to get somewhere, you're trying to build this life and create this thing, and and that's all great and having these big goals and that's all good, but you know, what did you do today? Because definitely that's that's what matters. So if you love music, play music every day. If you love art, do art every day, even if it's five minutes. Um, you know, that whatever brings you joy is really, I think, what is the best way to ground yourself and stay present um in in everyday life?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Exactly. What a lovely way of seeing because the patterns that broke you down uh first time do not just disappear, they come back, especially when you are

Old Patterns And Finding Touchstones

SPEAKER_00 16:48

tired or uh scared or the stakes go up. So, how do you handle uh the moments when you catch yourself slipping back into the um uh the old lawyer brain, uh the old uh uh conflict avoidance, the old hassle to outwork that thing?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah. Yeah, I think um a few a few things on that. Um it's absolutely, I think, in my opinion, absolutely correct. Like these things don't go away. And who you are is who you are, and how you react to things, you know, in your stress response, whatever your go-to is, your bite, flight, or freeze mode is always gonna be there. Um before I answer it directly, I'll say, you know, one of the things I've noticed, and for any of your listeners who are going through this type of existential crisis or whatever they're choosing to call it, um I I found that like I was talking about earlier, I had this reaction when I was a lawyer that was deep in my belly, uh, very physical. I I always called it anxiety. Um and I spent 10 years trying to manage that, trying to, I mean, I did everything. I like I you name it, I tried it. You know, it's sound baths and sound healing and acupuncture, qigong, multiple therapists, um, all kinds of breath work and meditation, and just trying to find something that would make that feeling go away. Um, because I I disliked it so much. What I what I found at the end was that was my body telling me that I was not doing what I'm here to do. And as soon as I stopped litigating and stopped showing up in that way, I have not had that feeling since. It completely went away. Now, I still have stress and anxiety. Um that like you say, that's not going away anytime soon. Um and uh but but that that deeper feeling that was my body telling me very loudly, you knock it off. You know, just stop doing this to yourself. Um, that did go away. And it wasn't something I could put a band-aid on because it was this deeper misalignment that I was experiencing. So um now, you know, when for a good example, we're leaving on a big trip in a couple of days, like I mentioned, and anytime before a big trip, I'm sure this is a fairly common experience. Uh, we're running around, we're staying up late, we're trying to get all the things done, you know, before we go, all these self-imposed deadlines. And um, you know, I think the the best thing I do in those spaces, um it really is just trying to have some kind of touchstone to come back to. Um, like I said, finding something I enjoy, even if it's to go out and go on a walk. I again, I think I'm always gonna come back to it's going outside. Um and uh sometimes my wife and I will joke about just uh we'll send the other one outside to check the weather. Can you just go check the weather for me? Just go look up at the sky and feel outside for a minute. Um, and that helps kind of tap back in uh you know to that space.

Law Adjacent Support And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_00 20:35

So if listeners wants to connect with you, what would be the great medium to connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, my my website's the best place. So you can find me at Dave Albrechtta, which is A-L-B-R-E-C H D A.com. And on my website, you'll find more about uh the mediation and coaching type work I'm doing. So I'm still a licensed lawyer. Uh I'm now kind of working law adjacent and helping people who are going through the legal process but are looking for some support uh in a different type of way uh to go through that process without uh causing the trauma and damage that I talked about before. Um, because sometimes you have to go through it, right? Like back to this, back to this same idea, like you can't escape life. Um, you know, there's no sometimes you gotta go through divorce or custody or you know, some kind of litigation. And um, you know, the thing that the legal system doesn't do is provide the support that people need as they're moving through that process. And so that's really what I'm building now. Um, anyway, so people can find more about all of that on my website. And then also on my website is a link to my podcast, which is called Lawyers as Healers. And uh that's a much deeper discussion with practicing lawyers about how lawyers can do a better job supporting our clients in these different ways.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Exactly.

Closing Reflection On Conflict

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Love it. So, dear listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for your easy reference. And um, with this, I have to say that there was a moment uh in this conversation where um uh I mean uh they uh spared conflict avoidance dressed up as a piece. And I want listeners like all of you to hold that one. Um and thank you there for this to uh and to everyone who is listening right now, and maybe they will be listening. The way you treat the conflict inside you is the way you will end up treating the conflict around you. So, um, with this hope, uh, this is your host, Avek, and this is Healthy Man Healthy Life. We'll see you on the next episode of Healthy Man Healthy Life. Till then, be happy and keep smiling. Thank you so much.