Why Success Should Not Hurt You

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Sometimes we think that if I want to be successful, I have to sacrifice, I have to trade off our health, our creativity, or even ourselves. You know, it's kind of a deal that we have to make. Now I do understand sometimes, you know, we do that. That's why it kind of has been normalized. But then what if it's not always necessary? Or what if actually the opposite is true? What if our best work comes from a healthier mind, a healthier body, and a healthier way of leading? Yeah, I mean, that question can sometimes sound unimaginable, but today we are exactly going to explore right at its core. But before I introduce my guest to all of you, welcome back, everyone, to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I am Sana, and this is the podcast where we explore conversations that help us live and work with greater awareness. And now let's first my guest, okay, he is someone who has spent years studying the future of leadership, workplace innovation, creativity, and human performance. So introducing Adam Kingle, he is an author, educator, advisor, and faculty member at institutions including London Business School, University College London, the University of Cambridge, Hulld International Business School, and Imperial College Business School. He's also the author of Next Generation Leadership, Sparking Success, and his latest book, Executive Eats, explores the science of nutrition, wellness, and performance for a better working life. So, Adam, welcome to Helldy Mind Helllife. It's a joy having you here.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Well, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Okay. Adam, uh, if you can give us the context, because generally, generally, in fact, you know what I have also have, I mean, my entire generation has been taught, they have learned that if you want to be successful, you have to sacrifice, you know, um, either you have to sacrifice your sleep or you cannot be very focused on your health, always focused on your health. You have to like, you know, trade off. Um, and that's how even our role models, you know, we have seen talking about, you know, that I sacrificed my sleep. I had to work continuously for 48, 72 hours or this entire month, and then only I could afford a 15-day or a month of vacation. But then you have to sacrifice it. So, what made you think about it? Because, you know, looking at your experience, your body of work, um, what exactly made you think about it?

Executives Shift From Mind To Body

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Well, I've been working in executive education, some good practitioners and uh senior managers, et cetera, for 20, 25 years. And I would say, let's say 15 years ago, when I would ask these managers and executives, what gets in the way of your performance professionally? They would usually give me an answer that was intellectual. It was related to content. It was something like, you know, I need to be a better strategic thinker. I need to be a better critical thinker. I finally need to wrap my head around finance, and then I will be, uh I will be a high-performing executive or what have you. But it was always related to more information in their gull. Lately, and when I say lately, I mean probably five years ago. So the last five years or so, when I've asked the same question, and I ask this question all the time, no matter what kind of executive education audience I'm I'm working with, like what gets in the way of your performance? The answer has usually been physical. So they've either said something like, I just don't have enough energy to be effective. You know, after 2, 3 p.m., I just feel useless for the rest of the day. Or I can't concentrate or, you know, or focus. I get, I have about two out two good hours in the day. And then after that, you know, I'll read a report and then realize I have no retention of what I just read. It just sort of went went in my eyeballs and then leaked out again. Um, or mood, you know, people are feeling I'm overcome by anxiety sometimes. I have no idea why. It just even even kind of unprovoked, it just comes upon me. Or I just find myself snapping, you know, at people. And there's no reason, it's not their fault. They didn't say anything or do anything, but I just can't level my emotional stability, things like that. Now, there are, of course, we know that there are a lot of things that affect these areas. Um, you know, hydration, sleep, the quality of your work life, the quality of your home life, exercise. But clearly, nutrition is another one of those aspects. And I and my co-author, Jakob Redzakowski at Imperial College, think that that is one of the main things that we, using your words, sacrifice. That we just we shortcut. We'll just drink the energy drink and not actually eat something healthy in the morning. Uh, I'm gonna give myself 15 minutes for lunch, and so I'm just going to eat a candy bar, for example, just to get through the day. Now, I I actually I don't object to that if it's every now and then. The problem is, my observation is it is it is people's everyday. For too many people, it is their ever it's their habit, not the exception. And that catches up with you. And these areas of improvement that they're telling me, the why they're not performing, is their body, you know, that that decline in their physiology catching up with them.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah. It's like, you know, just drink the cooler and get on to the Hamster wheel.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yes. Yeah. So Jacob and I decided, you know, well, we we I think we need to write about this topic, right? Remind busy professionals that they need to be a little bit more mindful about what they eat, that that should be part of their daily routine, not just planning the work aspects of your day, but the nutrition aspects of your day. Uh, so though so our book, Executive Eats, is is about that, but also about the nutrition and recipes, because we also want to make it so easy for people. We don't just want to say, eat leafy greens. People might say, okay, well, I don't happen to have any recipes for leafy greens. So the book is always saying, okay, no problem. Here you go. Here are some easy recipes uh so so that you can um incorporate that into your life.

The 2 P.M. Crash And Hustle Culture

SPEAKER_00 7:07

I'll I'll come to that because you know I've I have so many thoughts now coming up. Like you have you have really opened the floodgates, and I'm very sure this is exactly what our listeners are thinking right now. Interesting, I have had a conversation, and and this is specifically around the way you um started, you mentioned about the kind of change that we are seeing here right now. And I think it's a it's a universal observation. Interestingly, I have had a conversation with and this guy, he was a complete stranger. Um, we live in the same apartment, but it it was a kind of a we went for this community dinner, and uh we just kind of we were talking, and this guy, he was also he is in his mid-30s, I guess, yeah. Um, and he was mentioning, I mean, right now he's working remotely. And in fact, this is exactly what I'm also doing, a full-time podcaster. And he mentioned that I can only work laser focused for four hours. Beyond that, it's impossible for me to retain anything. Exactly what you mentioned, because that's what it reminded me, and I don't know whether it's a coincidence or not, but in fact, you know, two years back, you know, before I left my corporate world and I transitioned into working remotely, I always used to think, am I lazy or am I so incapable that after 2 p.m. I have to like gulp uh two, three cups of coffee, or maybe I see people getting down for a smoke, and then only they can get that energy. It's like, you know, you just get into that kind of mode where you cannot now feel the pain in your body. You do not even want to think about what you're eating. And especially, especially, you know, the 15 minutes lunch break. Adam, honestly, I hate that. I do not want to eat in haste. I want to have um at least, you know, a very um, at least, you know, a respectful time where I can eat. I can at least, you know, remember what I've eaten in my lunch or what I've had in my breakfast. And most of us, we are we are in that kind of hamster wheel where we don't do not even remember what we had in our dinner yesterday, what we had in our breakfast yesterday, you know, just go, go, go, go, just do this, do this, do this. Like we have just become doers.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yes.

Lunch As A Built In Pause

SPEAKER_01 9:29

It reminds me, uh I'm joining you from the UK where I live. And obviously, I work with lots of organizations and people from Europe. Um, and what I observe, for example, when I'm with clients in France, Spain, Italy, very much in France and Italy, is that if people are working in the office, it's still very normal for them to, on a daily basis, leave the office and have lunch in a restaurant. It doesn't have to be a particularly expensive restaurant, but going out and sitting down and it just, you know, instantly be you probably can't even get fed in, you know, less than 45 minutes to an hour, it forces you to slow down, um, you know, and and and hopefully eat better. You know, you're eating uh food that's being prepared in the minutes, not a candy bar out of the vending machine. And I think, you know, that's a helpful habit that to your point, I think we need to be mindful of that eating and indeed cooking are acts of mindfulness, like so many other activities. And interesting that many people are now catching on to the concept of mindfulness and they are selecting and practicing activities, and they're saying, in this manner, I'm practicing mindfulness, which is great. But what why are they doing that and still ignoring the daily physical activity that they have to do no matter what? Eating, hopefully, cooking, so that you really know it every now and then what you're ingesting, and make that an act of mindfulness as well. You have to do it, we all have to do it. So why rather than tarve out yet more time for other mindful activities, and I'm not against that, but let's at least include cooking and eating, because we have to do those things anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

We have to, we have to.

Busy Cities And The Meal Planning Trap

SPEAKER_00 11:33

And you know, I know that, you know, because we have uh listeners across across different multiple countries. And I come from India, especially uh right now I'm in a city where the entire population is, they have migrated from their homes, from their um home cities, and they're here for the jobs. Um their entire lifestyle is revolving around the job or the work, or maybe they are CEOs or they are founders. And there was an article where it was not an article, it was actually an Instagram video by um, you know, this guy. So he's at a managerial position in a big company, uh multinational company, MNC, and he was mentioning that it's difficult because um either you have two options here. Um that either you have to um get some kind of uh uh outside meal, you have to purchase the 10 minutes, the 30 minutes delivery, um, or you have to hire a cook. Um you have to be very uh cautious, you know, when you are purchasing vegetables or dairy. I mean, these are like very, you know, uh city-specific issues, Adam, which I'm pointing out. So when you are stuck in traffic for two hours, Bandalore is infamous for traffic, then you reach office, you get late, and you get an earful from your manager, probably, or you somehow manage that situation, then you have the deadlines. You know you are a high performer, so you cannot cannot compromise on beginning because your entire job or your entire uh investment or your entire business is uh you know, is is on you. It's it's um just you know hanging on on thread. And then you do not have even time to plan your meals. And then when you come back home, you doom scroll Instagram and you see all these creators, you know, giving videos of okay, make a uh make a baby, maybe a base out of chickpeas, or how to make hummus, or how to uh be mindful of your potions. I mean, how do we translate all these? You know, sometimes it can really go to the level of aesthetic, Adam, that, you know, you design your meal, very aesthetic, you know, it will look very pretty. But then when you put this prettiness or aesthetic into the context of the daily hustle that somehow we have to live through to sustain, just to survive, how do we translate this? How do we connect the mental health and the physical health together in this context?

Cooking For Mood Memory And Community

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Well, it first of all, I would come back to the point of one thing I think we shouldn't be sacrificing is regularly, and it maybe not be daily, but regularly preparing a meal. Not for hours, it might just be at 20 minutes, 30 minutes. There's some recent research at the University College London in the Department of Psychobiology, which indicates that if people cook themselves with some regularity, it can improve their blood pressure, their motor skills, their memory, so body and mind, reduce spouts of anxiety and depression in the same way that, as I said, many other mindful tasks are intended to do. Even better if we can cook sometimes with others. That that's a that creates community of practice, just the app being social, doing something with someone else. We know in the so-called blue zones in the planet, those parts of the world where people seem to live a remarkably long amount of time, Japan, South Korea, the southern Mediterranean, we yes, their diet is a big part of that. But another is their lifestyle. And one aspect of their lifestyle that um psychobiologists have identified is that they all are much more frequently are involved in communal activities, no matter what that looks like, doing things with others that is that is not work. Um so if for no other reason, like if I could make a case that simply to cook every now and then will give you a healthier, potentially longer life, I hope that will catch listeners' attention. That this is not simply, well, it's a lifestyle choice. And it's just uh it's what is one aesthetic versus another aesthetic, and I'm choosing not to. No, actually, there are benefits beyond choosing between like a red shirt and a green shirt here. Um, you know, that comes down to much more fundamental advantages to ourselves and and to our lives. I guess that's my my my my first point. The second point is uh I know to your to your argument of how you know busy people are.

Stacking Meals For Realistic Consistency

SPEAKER_01 16:40

So I'm a big advocate of stacking meals. What I mean by stacking meals is preparing something in a larger batch that you can either eat that two or three times throughout the week, or and particularly making something that you can easily create variations thereof. So if we have time, let me give you an example of that. There's a recipe in in the in the book, Executive Eats, which I've written, which is a mango cucumber salad. It's very simple. It's mango, cucumber, mint, fresh ginger, olive oil, lime juice, salt, and pepper. That's it. It's great now in the summertime because it's refreshing, it's cool. Uh, we don't often, sometimes we don't combine fruit and vegetables together in a salad as much as I think we should. Um, so you get the natural sugars and the mango, which are a natural energy booster. Um so if you make that salad, let's say on Sunday evening, and make a big batch, right? And then put a little bit in a Tupperware container, you know, one serving size, take it to work on Monday. It will keep in your car. Even if you're commuting for two hours, it's not gonna spoil, right? There's no, there are not there's nothing perishable in there. Bring it to work, eat that for your lunch. Okay. But now listeners might think, okay, so now I've eaten it, but now I'm tired of it. I don't want to eat the same thing on Tuesday. Well, yeah, so when you get home on Monday, take another portion of the salad, put it in a top of a work container, but now add just a few dice, and this will take you seconds, just add so a diced tomato, a diced avocado, and maybe some chopped coriander, and maybe some chili. It completely changes it. Um, bring that to work on Tuesday. And now listeners are saying, yeah, but now I'm tired of that. Okay, fine. On Tuesday night, put the rest of that salad in the Tupperware container and add some diced tofu, some crushed toasted, roasted peanuts, um, maybe some thinly sliced kafir lime leaves, maybe some lemongrass, splash of um fish sauce, and you're in Southeast Asia. Completely different dish. And it really didn't take you long at all. Not didn't take you a long time on Sunday night, certainly didn't take you a long time on Monday or Tuesday night, and you've just eaten three healthy meals. Not just healthy, meaning it's natural ingredients, you know exactly what you're putting in your mouth. It's all fresh produce. That's all great. But also what that salad does is it helps our focus and attention uh and concentration because of the magnesium in the mango. It helps with our mood, helps stave off anxiety because of the folic acid in the cucumber, helps with our sustained energy because of the fiber in the magnesium and the healthy fat, the HDL in the olive oil. So it's also improving all these different dates that I listed at the beginning of our conversation, in addition to simply knowing it's a healthy filling meal.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

I'm so hungry very much. And another another uh point I actually want to highlight here. I think, of course, you know, the nutritional value, but then here also your senses are being involved. There is aroma, there is colors, you know, mango, cucumber. Imagine, like, you know, the orange, the green popping up, then the aroma of caffeine or coriander. Um, you know, the the healthy fat of tofu, and then maybe it can involve some healthy nuts here for the crunchiness. So the senses are senses are also being involved here. And I think that somehow leads to mindfulness as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yes, it does. I agree. Yeah, so it's a great way to take a simple dish and make it exciting, right? Simple doesn't have to be unexciting. You've got contrasting bright colors, as you say, contrasting texture with like the soft mango, the crunchy cucumber and peanut, you know, maybe you have a you have bright aromas hitting you from the fresh herb. It works on so many levels.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

It does. It does. Oh. Okay. I think our listeners are also really hungry. But Adam, I think they'll be so, so now curious to explore, especially your executive eats book.

Work Life Balance Means Different Things

SPEAKER_00 20:59

But before that, um, one final question um around your body of work. And I think I I actually want to double down on this because you have spent years studying different generations at work. Um and there are some stereotypes about younger and older generations. Um, because right now I'm finding a kind of gap, you know, there's a discourse. Um, and it's kind of natural as well. But then I also believe that um there's a room, you know, and this is not only with respect to the older generation or with respect to the younger generation, but at on both the sides. Um beneath those, uh all these labels, you know, um what what human needs remain the same? One thing that you pointed out is the community. And I think that is something before the advent of social media or or or internet. We did have the sense of importance of, you know, the physical, um, physical uh, you know, uh connection of of you know in in humans. But in today's era, I think now people are longing more for that physical human connection. But apart from that, what human needs they're still the same?

SPEAKER_01 22:20

I think another is more balance in our lives. You know, we we sometimes call it, and this is a bit of a reductive phrase, work-life balance, but effectively not working ourselves to death, right? Now you were talking about maybe older generation saying, Oh, do you know how hard I worked when I was young, you know, to get to where I am. And now finally I can work maybe a 40-hour week or, you know, and now I can just, you know, finally. But actually, the younger generation are saying, yeah, but I observed that too. I don't want to kill myself for 15, 20 years before I can finally, you know, I want that to be my whole life, not just something to look forward to in the final, you know, uh third part of my of my career. But here's the good news that probably tells us that every generation is craving better work-life balance. So surely the generations can collaborate more effectively together in order to create a work environment that allows for that to happen. Most of the time it doesn't happen because we don't allow the conversation and we don't think through how we can create uh rhythms and cultures in our in our organization that help us to fulfill um that goal.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah, I think I think um at its heart, every generation, you know, simply wants to feel respected, heard, and also able to to contribute in meaningful ways, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Um I think there is there is I I don't believe in going extremes, but then I also believe that, you know, because I'm also at the crossroads where I've taken some values from my older generations, my parents, grandparents, but then at the same time, I also understand from where the younger generations are coming and what they actually want to convey. But somehow in all the noise out there, um, maybe it's a manufactured noise, or maybe unintentionally the noise is getting just amplified. The true meaning of everything is kind of get is getting lost in translation. But that's why these conversations are important.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yes. And speaking to your point, this phrase you just said about lost in translation brings up something that that reminds me that came up that was really interesting in the research I was doing from my book, Next Generation Leadership. And that is that different people have different definitions of what work-life balance means for them. For some people, it might be hours work. For others, it might be where work happens. You know, I just want to be more flexible in terms of location work. For others, it might be work-life balance means something specifically related to their lives. Like on Friday at 2 p.m., I have to pick up my child from nursery, I there's no other solution. So I have to make work allow that to happen. And that means work-life balance for them. So, to your to your point, we have to be empathetic and then and not and not conflate what work-life balance means for us, what it might mean for someone else. So the best piece of advice that I can give in relation to this point around understanding, being curious about all the generations, not just yelling to be heard oneself, is if someone says is if someone brings into a conversation the phrase work-life balance, please come out. The first thing you should ask is, what do you mean when you say work-life balance? Just make sure you understand and you're on the same page. Otherwise, you can get into um a discord simply related to semantic.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

That's a million-dollar one. I think we cannot put any price to that. It's it's um

Where To Find The Books

SPEAKER_00 26:03

wow. Okay, and Adam, before we wrap this up, if our listeners, um, if they would like to get a hold of your books, especially executive eats, and also if they have anything, any experiences or any uh their you know views or they want to share something with you, reach out to you, how they can do that.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Of course, I would recommend three different ways. First of all, the book. If they want to get executive eats or sparking success or next generation leadership, they should be available on at any online book retailer. Any reason it isn't available in one, I guarantee you it'll be available somewhere else. They're commonly available in hardback, paperback, and ebook. To reach me directly or to find out more about me or read more about my media or my keynote speaking, et cetera, just go to my website, which is just my name, adamkingle.com. Um, and my surname is K-I-N-G-L, slightly odd spelling, but just all one word, adamkingle.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn. Uh, just you know, put in my name, search for me on LinkedIn. Happy to connect with anyone who uh who wishes to.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Amazing. So, listeners, as you all know, I'll drop all the links in the show notes. So do find them attached along with the episode on your favorite podcast platforms or maybe on any platform where you're tuning into Healthy Mind, Healthy Life, refer to the description section. And Adam, thank you so much. I've I've really, really this was such a crucial, crucial conversation and very thoughtful. And I really, really enjoyed. I'm very sure our listeners have got a lot of takeaways from this one.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

And to all of you, my beautiful, beautiful listeners. Okay, remember this.

Closing Message On Sustainable Success

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Success is important, it is vital, but not if it costs the very person you are trying to become. So do take care of your mind, take care of your body, and together, let's build a healthier life. So, with this, I'm Senna, and this has been Healthy Mine Heavy Life. I'll catch you in the next episode. Thank you so much.