The Unnamed Fog Of No Why

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There is a particular kind of uh mental fog that doesn't show up on any health checklist. Yeah. It's not anxiety exactly, but uh it's not depression exactly as well. Though it can look like both, but it's not. And it's a fog of living without a clear sense of why. Like going through the emotions of a produ uh productive, um responsible life and feeling quietly like empty from inside. And like we almost never name it for what exactly it is or kind of purpose gap. So today we connect the dots between purpose and mental health in a way that I think it will land differently than you expect. So hey there listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of LDM Heavy Life. I'm your host, Navik, and um, this is the podcast where we have honest conversations about what it actually takes to feel well and live fully. And today we are exploring the relationship between purpose and mental health. Uh, not purpose as a grand mission, Statin, but I would say as something deeply personal that uh directly affects how we feel, how we function, and at the same time how we show up in our own lives. And by the end, I hope that you'll definitely walk away with something real that you can use. And we have a very lovely guest with us today. And my guest guest has spent his career exploring exactly this. So please welcome my guest, Sunit Bart. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Hi, thank you for having me, Avik. I appreciate it. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Thank you so much, Suneit, for uh being here today. And dear listeners, before we get into the discussion, I'll quickly love to introduce you with Sunit. So um, he is a coach, speaker, and the author of Making Sense of Purpose. And he has spent over 25 years building and leading in every kind of organization until a pattern of emptiness and self-sabotage forced him to ask a very much deeper question. And today he helps people get unstuck and find the purpose that actually fits them. So I'll not take much of time. Let's get started.

Why Purpose Feels Like A Burden

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Welcome to the show again. Great to be here. So Sonic, like I definitely want to start with um a connection I think um like most people haven't made explicitly, like the link between purpose and the mental health. So uh uh I mean we talk about uh you know like uh sleep, exercise, nutrition, therapy, everything and all the pillars of a healthy mind it can be. But purpose rarely makes that list. So I mean, what do you think? I mean, what do people most get wrong about how directly our sense of purpose or kind of uh lack of it affects our mental and the emotional well?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah, I think what people miss about uh purpose and the impact it can have on your life and how it connects to mental health, meaning, well-being, happiness, all of those things uh is that uh people tend to first they think purpose is something that is external to them. It is something they have to chase, it is something they have to find. And as a result of that, when it's something external to you, it instantly becomes another burden. So purpose becomes something you have to think about it, you have to find purpose, you have to change you chase purpose, you pursue purpose. Um all of those things uh are actions you have to take before you can get to purpose. So the first thing is people tend to think of purpose as something external. Second, if you look at all of the work that's out there about purpose, it gives you, and there's a there's amazing there's an amazing body and library of work on purpose, but all of it is a framework, a tool, an approach that you have to embark upon and complete the challenge for people and the one of the challenges with all of those frameworks is that they all start one step too late. They all assume that you are showing up with a full and clear and healthy perspective and understanding of who you are. And as a result of that, uh, because they skip that step, what happens is people show up and they haven't thought about themselves. They're just responding to the prompts, they're just responding to the framework and they're filling that out based on their current state of mind, whatever pressures they're feeling, whatever mood they're feeling, whatever external factors are are uh and whatever their mindset might be in the moment. And so the connection, you know, to to bring it back to the connection to to mental health, uh, you know, purpose makes everything that you want to do clearer, more possible. It connects you to it. And the benefit of that connection is as soon as you know, we understand that life isn't linear. Um, and so as soon as something changes and turns, if you're not connected to it and you don't understand why you're doing it, and you don't feel like it's your own choice, well, you're gonna feel burdened by it. You're gonna feel pressured by it, and you're gonna be more likely to give up on it or be frustrated by it. And that I think is the first challenge is people haven't done the work to understand what makes them and matters to them so they can connect it to whatever they're doing so they can be more motivated to do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Exactly. Exactly true. So also I want to ask you like when someone

Reflection Makes Purpose Tangible

SPEAKER_01 6:20

begins to find a genuine purpose, uh, what do you think what changes in their mental and the emotional health that nothing else uh kind of quite produced?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, I I think the first thing that changes is they realize that purpose is possible. Purpose is accessible. Purpose is not something on a pedestal uh that is reserved for a few people. Uh, purpose is accessible to everyone. That's the first thing they realize. The second thing they realize um is that it's not some abstract prediction they have to make. Purpose, happiness is a reflection before it is a prediction. So the work they're trying to do is actually just recognize the patterns of things that have already moved them and that they've already accomplished and that have already energized them and that have already put a smile on their face. And so that's powerful because you don't have to create anything new to start your journey on purpose. You just have to take the time, I say give yourself the space and grace to start with what got you here and what resonates with you. And the more of that reflection you do, the more you realize that there already is so much purpose in your life, you just haven't taken the time to connect the dots and tie the laces on it and weave it into a narrative. So it becomes accessible, it becomes possible, it becomes tangible. And as a result of that, it becomes momentum building, right? Instead of it becoming daunting, right? It becomes compelling and inspiring. And that's the best. When I teach my class at Rutgers, the best thing, students come in with a variety of different perspectives and from different places. Some people take the find and evolve your purpose class and they they switch a career, they pick a career path, and they're off to the races, right? They're shot out of a cannon. But a lot of people come in with just anxiety. And the best thing we can do is the best thing students say to me is at the end of class, they say, you know, Sunit, I'm, I don't think I found my purpose, but I know I'm gonna be okay. I know I'm gonna be okay. And as soon as they say, I know I'm gonna be okay, they're safe, they're clear, they're confident. That's when they can actually start thinking about purpose. Could you imagine thinking about purpose if you were stressed, anxious, fearful, um, hurt? You're not gonna find your purpose in those moments. You have to reckon with those moments first, realize they're very human, and then you can start pursuing your purpose and thinking about your purpose.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Exactly true. Exactly. I really love that. I mean, thank you for explaining that. Uh, because I mean, that's such an important connection to make because I think a lot of people have been um treating mental health symptoms while um completely overlooking the purpose, uh, which is undernet, purpose deficit underneath. And yeah, and I really love like you uh mentioned about the purpose and not as a luxury or kind of uh philosophical nicety. So, and obviously it's a genuine mental health variable, something that uh affects how we feel, how we cope, how uh how uh resilient we are, and that's the main thing. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, um, I mean, absolutely. And I love that you talk about the you know, people treating the symptom uh and not uh not the condition. It's like striking at the branch of a problem as opposed to the root. Um I think you've you've hit it. We are doing a lot of symptomatic work, but we are not helping people understand themselves and get comfortable with who they are first so

Hungry Grocery Shopping For Meaning

SPEAKER_00 10:30

that everything else becomes clearer to them. If I can, here's the analogy that that I use when people are going in search of you know purpose, in search of meaning, in search of happiness. Um, right now, the way people search for those things is equivalent to someone going grocery shopping but hungry and without a list. If you've ever gone grocery shopping, uh, no matter what your means may be, you know that if you show up at a grocery store hungry, you're not gonna make good decisions. You're gonna make unhealthy, impulsive, uh instinctive, reactive decisions, right? The second thing is if you go without a plan, without a list, well, then you're just gonna be opportunistic. You're gonna look, walk down the aisles, and whatever reaches out to you, right, in the moment, you're gonna react to and respond to. But if you do that with purpose, well, if you just if you're craving purpose, but you haven't and you're hungry, well, whatever comes to you next, you're just gonna latch on to, whether it's good for you or not. It may not be meaningful to you, but it's an answer, it satiates you in the moment because you're starving. And the second thing is if you don't go there with a perspective on yourself, what makes you and matters to you, who you want to be and who you are, well then whatever the world tells you you are, you're gonna take, you're gonna react, as opposed to being intentional about it. And so the work is one, making sure people aren't starving, making sure people aren't hungry, but people are full and clear and confident in who they are. And the second uh is making sure that there's a plan that they are choosing, they are aligned with what they want to explore and experiment with next, as opposed to just reacting to what the world is is telling them or providing them. And that's a fundamental shift. And it's not hard. It's not hard, it's possible. Everybody can do this work. I do it with high school students, I do it with college students, I do it with professionals, I do it with retirees. And this work is for everyone. You don't need to be 50, you can be 12 years old and get some clarity on what makes you it matters to you. That can happen.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

That can definitely happen, yeah, definitely. And also, like if you just go deeper, like as you as you spent 25 years achieving and leading, um, and then by most measures succeeding, so still found yourself in a pattern of emptiness and self-sapous as well. So, what was the and what was that experience like from inside? Like, what was it revealing about the relationship which is between um external success and uh genuine mental health?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, I think that was my journey. So everything I talk about, you know, I I ran the experiment on myself first, right?

When Success Stops Feeling Good

SPEAKER_00 13:40

And you know, external validation, it's all the research proves external motivation, external validation doesn't last very long. It's it can't, it's external, right? Um, it's the things that are internal to you that last longer, right? And you know, when I was doing when I was doing my work, I it got into this pattern where I would do work. And when I was young, everything was new. So I loved it. And it, you know, it would take a couple of years before I would get bored of the work um and bored of the job. And but over time, as I grew older, it started going from four years to three years to two years to 24 months to 12 months, where I would start getting bored, maybe sooner. And the challenge is so I had a moment, I had multiple moments where I would look at it and I would say, something is not right here. But at that moment, instead of going inside and exploring and excavating, because that can be vulnerable and scary for people, it's identity, right? Instead of going inside, I just said, you know what? I don't like this job. I'm gonna go find a new job. And so I would externalize it, go find a new job. And doing that over and over again, what I realized is that it's not that I didn't like the job, it's that I didn't like the work. So it didn't matter what job I did that work in, I was never gonna be fully satisfied. And it was my wife who told me, this is enough. Like there's something broken here. You need to take some time, you need to think about who you are, you need to think about what motivates you and stop falling into this pattern because the pattern's just getting worse. It's not getting better, it's getting worse and sharper. And so I think that that was a massive learning for me. That, and we had amazing success. Like we did really good, we did really good work, but the work didn't feel good. Uh, and you know, I remember raising lots of money, being part of Exit, selling businesses, having patents, building products, like, you know, uh developing entirely new ways to think about business and framing and marketing and all these amazing things. I never talk about those things ever. Because they didn't really matter to me. I could do them academically and I could do them in some cases pretty exceptionally, but uh they didn't matter. And so that is where you learn that the external success, external success only matters when it's a complement and an extension of your internal compass. So when the external success validates something you believe about yourself and want for yourself and know to be true that motivates you, well then it's a balloon, right? Well, then it is something that carries you further, upless, it amplifies that message, right? And that perspective. But if it doesn't connect to anything inside of you, then it just floats away. It's ethereal, it just escapes and you lose it. And that's the thing that we're trying to talk about, which is how does everything, how do you tether and connect everything you do to something about who you who you are?

[Ad] EMPOWERED Voices: Recovery to Resiliency

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. And uh what did back of self-sabotage teach you

(Cont.) When Success Stops Feeling Good

SPEAKER_01 18:01

that uh success never had?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, I mean it's the truth. It's been probably one of the hardest things to like really confront, but there were a lot of there were a number of times where at some point um I wasn't happy with the work I was doing. Uh, I wasn't connected to the work I was doing. And instead of confronting it, I would just sabotage it. And that would make give me an easy reason to escape, to demonize someone to whatever. It would allow me to externalize it as opposed to connected to it and say, hey, you know what? I'm doing all this work. It's not the stuff that moves me, it's not the stuff that motivates me, and it's not the stuff I love and can do forever. And I think that um, you know, you do you you learn a lot from your successes. I'm a huge fan of strengths, but I think there's this, there's two, there's multiple dynamics. But in the in the context of strengths and mistakes, I think strengths are to be, you have to understand your strengths first. You build on a strong foundation, not on a weak one. We spend too much time on our weaknesses or mistakes. So you want to start from your strengths. And, you know, that's not me, that's Marcus Buckingham, that's Clifton, that's like this. It's research and research, where you start with your strengths, right? But I think you start with your strengths, you have to understand those. But when it comes to the mistakes, when it comes to the things you aren't good at, when it comes to self-whatever it is, self-sabotage, the most important thing you can do there is understand them and tell the truth about them. Don't judge them. We are human beings, we're complex systems, we're gonna have an error rate, right? Even the most uh incredible world-class systems in the world, orchestrated to perfection, have error rates. We're gonna have error rates. I think the most important thing is not to judge those, but just to understand them, become aware of them, and then figure out what you want to do with it. And this is what I talk about in my book, which is there's no judgment. We have to stop judging. We just have to emphasize awareness, understanding, and truth. The truth is undefeated. Get to the truth of that error, get to the truth of that mistake, and then move on. That's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Amazing, and um so so also, um, I mean, if you talk about our our day-to-day life, because uh that's where everything lives. So for someone

Daily Clues And Locus Of Control

SPEAKER_01 20:39

who is listening who is not in NISIS, but uh senses a quiet purposelessness and then it's their daily routine. So, what do you think? Where does that show up uh mostly in uh in a uh daily life?

SPEAKER_00 20:55

I think um if you're feeling that thing, then the first thing I would do is what we just talked about. I would just honor it. You're the world, you are your body is telling you something, your mind is telling you something, your heart is telling you something, the world is telling you something. The first thing is don't judge it, don't hide from it. Create space for it so that you can understand it. Right. So the first thing you want to do is just get like just understand it and don't judge yourself for it. You're a human being. This is a natural part of the ebbs and flows of the human existence. Don't judge it, just understand it. Once you understand it, I think the next thing is like to understand it, tell the tell the truth about it, right? And the objective truth about it, which is you know, one of the biggest mistakes we have, one of the biggest mistakes and challenges people have is there's this concept of locus of control, right? And locus of control, if you have an internal locus of control, and think of it as a continuum, right? And the left hand side of the continuum is internal. If you have an internal locus of control, that means you think you control everything, whatever happens to you is because of you, good or bad, right? It is self-determined. On the right hand side of the continuum is everything is beyond my control, right? Everything is beyond my control. Now, the way locus of control tends to be taught is you tell people, people take an assessment, and this is the problem with singular assessments. They take an assessment, they get a score, and it says you're somewhere on the continuum. And so people look at it. And then they say, you know what? I have an internal, most internal locus of control, mostly internal locus of control. I have an external locus of control, somewhat external locus of control. I'm somewhere on this continuum. And they they presume it's that way for everything. But that's just not the way it is. Locus of control is situation independent. Situation dependent, right? And each each moment is independent, but it's situation dependent. There are times where you have very little control over what's happening to you. Right? If you are in a in an area where there's a natural disaster, um, yeah, you chose to live there, but at the end of the day, majority of what just happened to you is beyond your control. So the most important thing for you is to tell the truth and be like, you know what, this, I control 15% of this. 85% is beyond my control. I'm not going to worry about that 85%. I'm going to focus on the 15% that I can control. There are other times based on your choices of what to eat, what to whatever it might be, where maybe 85% is within your control and 15% isn't. And that's why I keep going back to the most important thing is you need to tell the truth about your circumstance and that moment. And the biggest place to focus and where we delude ourselves and where we, unless we are self-aware, we don't get to the good work, is at that point where internal and external meet. There's usually a gap. There's usually some component of things that we can control that we have said we can't. And what I encourage people to do is to try and identify that and claw back some control over what they can. They're telling themselves some story. Oh, I can't do this. This is beyond my control, et cetera. Like, spend your time, spend your time there. But the most important practical thing uh I think you can do. So tell, you know, be honest, acknowledge it, be aware, not judgmental, right? Tell the truth about that moment. Get to the truth of the moment, right? And then I think you've got to decide what you're ready for. You may do that work and say, you know what, I got it. I don't have any energy to do anything right now. I'm just gonna let it sit. I'm not ready for this conversation. Yeah. Say that, say that out loud so you don't tackle it. Or you might say, you know what, I'm ready to make some progress. And if you're ready to make progress, the the last thing I would tell you is you pick up the work, the most influential work for me is James Clear and Britt Frank. And basically they talk about the power of small steps and the power of, you know, very the way they articulate it, these are not my words, is don't optimize for the finish line, optimize for the starting line. Optimize for the starting line, which is find the easiest things to say yes to and get started. And if you're looking for that and you're trying to figure out what that is, there's a really simple reflection, which is every night before you go to bed or every morning before you wake up, um ask yourself, what are three things that made me smile today? Just made me smile. Write those down. Then say, what are three things that gave me energy energy today, or I felt my confidence grow? Right. Do those things first and then say, all right, what's one thing I want to do better today? And create a little flywheel and momentum for yourself. And that's how you'll get started. And if you do that, what you'll see is you'll start to see patterns of happiness, of purpose, of progress, and things you want to tackle. And you'll start finding your way forward and you'll start reconnecting to what you do with intentionality because you're gonna start with happiness, which is the backdrop to success, not the outcome. Then you're gonna start with energy and confidence, and then you're gonna pick something you want to work on. You're gonna be connected to the intention you're setting that day. And the likelihood that you start getting unlocked bit by bit and being more focused simply because you notice what you're doing as opposed to sleepwalking through it, is gonna be a powerful way to get started.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Amazing. So and uh, you know, like here is the honest part about uh I mean that nobody really talks about that even when someone finds genuine purpose, life still has the hardest seasons. So yeah, uh I mean the uh parts which are uh purposeful gets difficult. The the motivation dips and also the old emptiness again come back. So how do you help someone protect their mental health and at

Self Forgiveness In Hard Seasons

SPEAKER_01 27:29

the same time their uh sense of purpose through the hard stretches, like when it uh when it would be kind of uh what do you think? Like when it could be easier to drift back into just going through those motions.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

The thing the thing I tell people is those ebbs and ebbs and flows are normal, they're inevitable. Life is nonlinear, it moves forward in progressive spirals. The most important thing you can do for yourself, bud, is self-forgiveness. Forgive yourself. There are three most powerful arrows that we have in our quiver to overcome trauma, uh derailment, um, uh this feeling of being on a plateau or being stuck. The three most powerful things are uh community, turning to our community, turning to religion, um, or turning to self-forgiveness. Now, community is amazing, it just requires other people, right? Um so religion is powerful and beautiful, but you know, we let's acknowledge that uh many people are not religious, and many people have a uh complex relationship with their faith, right? If you if you have it. But the easiest thing you can do, where you only need yourself, is to close your eyes and forgive yourself for whatever you're carrying. Just forgive yourself. And if you do that, the you acknowledge it and then you forgive yourself, the likelihood that you'll get back on track because you're not carrying all that guilt is tremendous. There's a there's some you know uh qualitative research that was done on students and procrastination. And they took this small group of students and they broke them up into two groups, and they were all procrastinators. They took one group and they said, continue doing what you would normally do after you procrastinated. They took another group and they said, You all are gonna forgive yourself for procrastination. So they broke into those two groups. When the next test came, here's what happened. The group that just did what they would normally do, uh, didn't forgive themselves, they procrastinated more. They procrastinated more on the next test. Yeah. Why? Because they were carrying the guilt plus the bad habit, right? More weight. So of course they move slower. The group that forgave themselves procrastinated less. And that is all the power of self-forgiveness. It's the most important arrow we have in our quiver. You know, two nights ago, you know, I lost my temper with my son. I was stressed. There's a lot of stuff happening. Lost my temper with my son. I woke up uh that night, you know, kissed him goodnight, went to bed that next morning. The first thing I did when he came downstairs was put my hand on his shoulders and just apologize for my role in that conversation. And we had an amazing day because I was able to say it, acknowledge it, own it, right? But apologize and then forgive myself. And then he felt better and we just moved forward and we had a great breakfast. And so that's the power of self-forgiveness.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah, exactly. Interesting, lovely. So Sunit, like if um, you have to give one advice to all the listeners today, what that will be.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Um if I had to give one piece of advice uh to the listeners, um, what I

One Kind Truth And A Weekly Thread

SPEAKER_00 31:04

would say is I think just be kind to yourself. The harshest stories we tell are the ones we tell ourselves. I don't want you to delude yourself, but I think there's a truth you're you can tell yourself that is way more flattering and honest and authentic than the one you likely are. And I just want you to find that truth. Just get to the truth. Uh, don't judge yourself, be aware, and just get to the truth.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

And if uh listeners wants to connect with you, what would be the great medium to connect?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, so they can find me on LinkedIn is where I'm most engaged. Uh, they can go to the website for the book, which is making sense of purpose.com. Or recently I'm new and experimenting on Instagram. So they can find me on it's my handle is Sunit on Purpose.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So uh lovely. So, dear listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links, details, everything into the show notes uh for your easy reference so that you can easily reach out to Sunit. And um, I have to say, um, Sunit, thank you so much. And uh I mean the making the link between purpose and mental health uh is is really really important. And uh I think a lot of people are going to look at their own purpose, question a little differently after today. So this is very important. Yeah, yeah. And at the same time, like when uh people you are listening, or maybe you'll be listening later as well. Uh, here is a small step for this week. Like, think of one moment in the last month where you felt almost alive, kind of uh I won't say almost, just most alive, basically. Yeah, most alive, most engaged, and most like yourself. So don't analyze it, just notice that that moment is definitely a thread worth following, I think. And uh following it even a little uh might be the best thing you do for your mental health this week. So uh with this hope, this is a host of weekend. This is Healthy Man, Healthy Life. Um I'll see you in the next one. Thank you so much. Thank you.