When Winning Feels Empty

SPEAKER_00 0:04

You hit the goals, you earn the title, you work harder than anyone else around you, and now you have everything you thought you wanted. So, why does it feel so hollow? Why does getting out of bed feel harder than it used to, even when your calendar says you are winning? Okay, we are talking about what happens when success stops feeling like success, and when achievement becomes a weight instead of a reward, and how to rebuild a life that actually feels meaningful again. Welcome to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I'm Shrimada and I'm glad you all are here. This show is about real conversations on mental health, the kind that meet you where you are and help you move forward without the put to have it all figured out. Today's conversation is one I have been looking forward to because it touches so many high achievers feel, but they rarely say it out loud. Joining me today is Joel Clemo. Joel, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Thank you so much for having me.

Why Vacation Alone Won’t Fix Burnout

SPEAKER_00 1:21

And uh Joel, to begin with, I would um start with something like, you know, when uh I think a lot of people misunderstand because when they say they are burnt out, the first response is usually to take a vacation or be to rest a little more. But that is not always the best way to solve it, right? So what do you think is a notion we have about this?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

No, I mean, I I think it's very important to have a sustainability, and meaning you need to absolutely have a space, whether that's meditation, uh, prayer, quiet space, uh, if that is a vacation, if that is doing a hobby or or doing outside, you need to have that space to sustain, right? You can't just keep going and going and going, although it's it's very easy uh to uh especially if you're ambitious and and you know if you love what you're doing and you have that vision and you're moving towards that area. Uh, I I know there's a draw to it, but the reality is is you're you can only do that so much for so long. And so you have to get into a place where you can sustain that level. Now, the nice thing about it is it's it's kind of like working out, where maybe you know, the first time you go to the gym and it it'll take you a week to recover. But once you start doing it more regularly, you'll be able to push yourself more and more and more, where you'll be able to really hone in on very small time space to have such a very large impact, and also allow enough space for yourself to give the right sleep, you know, ensure that you're healthy and not burnt out. Um, but it it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Absolutely. And uh so, Joel, if you think that rest is not fully the answer, then what maybe, or maybe uh what happens or what is actually beneath the surface when someone realizes that success is not the way they thought it would feel like to them.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

No, I

External Success Versus Real Foundations

SPEAKER_01 3:49

mean I I could just look at myself. I I have a couple examples. It as far as there's there's the internal measures and then there's the external, right? So one of my first companies or endeavors was just fitness, and on the outside looked very successful. Uh, it it grew to five warehouses. And um, at the time, I think the economy you could have put your money in, done anything, and been successful, but shortly after the housing market crashed, and then everything came into light, right? And so a lot of times I think where we there's a difference between what's real and what's reality, and we really need to kind of have that self-assessment and really look in the mirror and say, where are we truly at? Because there's gonna be waves where you could almost do anything and you're going to be successful. I I think a lot of people in the crypto space saw that where you could put your money in anything and you'll you'll be somewhere. And then, you know, alongside of that, there's gonna be times where it is lean and you really have to see is this sustainable? Am I really doing the right things in the right way? And so part of that is the external factors, the other is the internal. Um, shortly after I had a logistics company, this was in my 20s, KPS. And KPS was very successful on paper. I had some very, very enterprise level clients, and you know, so grateful for the support that I had to be successful. But very quickly, I was running no less than a hundred, a hundred and twenty-hour work weeks, and it just wasn't sustainable. And and I loved what I did every day, but there was nothing uh that I could have done to not get burnt out. It was just I was running, um, not relying on people, not hiring the correct way, not really having a sustainable approach. And so on both those, on the outside, it looks successful, but the reality is it wasn't built on a good foundation. And so I think the biggest part is not only having uh the success, but what is that success built on? Is it built on ethical standards and foundations? Is it sustainable both in the highs and the lows? Is there controls involved where you can have a normal work week, but also ensure that you're spending time with your family or hobbies, or what else is important in your life? And so I think at the end of it, it's uh success should just be more defined than just the outcome, but also the internal frameworks that come with it.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Absolutely. And you mentioned your own personal experience, and you mentioned a very important thing that it should also come from your internal feelings as well. So,

The Cost Of Selfish Achievement

SPEAKER_00 6:54

and Joel, you have also worked with a lot of people, and so what do you think uh are some of the patterns you see which leads to this notion where success starts uh to be defined by those external parameters? Or why do you think success starts feeling envy for some people or even suffocating at times?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Well, so a lot of times people aren't driven on things above themselves, and so I think there's a notion where there is a level of selfishness that each person has. I want to be rich, I want to be successful, I want to have this job and this career. And so people are driving it almost at any cost. Well, in order to do that, it usually means potentially, you know, depending on uh where you're at, but it potentially means that you're sacrificing in an area. Uh, you're you're giving up certain things, in some cases, certain values. And the problem is, is once you start on that path, maybe you'll get awards or you'll get accolades, you'll get different things that support and reinforce those behaviors. And the reality is, is you're just distancing yourself from the reality of you can't keep going in that way. And eventually, when especially in larger organizations, the larger you you go and the higher you go, you have to learn different things. What will work the first time will not work necessarily the second time. Doesn't mean there's certain things and foundations that will help you succeed, right? Hard work ethic, and you know, putting forth your best best efforts, and uh a lot of those things will carry on. Some of the technical skills that you've learned from the very beginning may be able to use, but the reality is now there's other things that you're gonna have to learn. You're gonna have to learn relationships, you're gonna have to learn uh in certain level, unfortunately, politics. And uh there's all sorts of different things that you have to kind of go outside yourself. And unless you have a true focus on who you are, where you want to go, uh it's gonna be difficult. And then the selfish drive, once you achieve it, then what? I I I've since the very beginning, I told myself in high school I'm going to be this big executive and I'm going to be on the lake front of Chicago, because that's where I grew up, and I'm going to be uh, you know, in a high rise looking out on the water. 26 years old, I achieved that. And I'm looking and saying, now what? And so once you achieve it, now what? And what did you sacrifice? Did you sacrifice your marriage? Did you sacrifice your kids? Did you sacrifice so now you're all alone in this area and you don't know what to do, and you're so high, there's nobody that can mentor you in a certain area. And so for those who can find a bigger purpose outside themselves, and it could be their family, it could be uh their team, it could be a greater service, those people, when they reach it, will always have a desire to do more and be more successful because it's not about them, it's about those that they're serving and those who they're going. And also, since it's not about them, you could yourself make sure that you're driving yourself sustainable as well, because you have to be healthy to help other people.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Absolutely, and you mentioned something so important. Like what does success come at the cost of? Is it really success when it costs our relationships, our families, as you mentioned? And it's so important to look at it that way. So,

Staying Grounded With Communication

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Joel, you know, when uh we look at someone who is going through this in their everyday life, maybe they are not having a dramatic breakdown, but maybe it's in those little signs that uh they are having a not so good relationship with their families, in uh having a good relationship with their work and defining success on just those jobs. So, what would you say to someone like that? Or how do you think a can person be grounded in such situations?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yeah, I think uh uh and you you look at a lot of personal, there's always certain key characteristics and principles that come up. I think one of the big ones is communication. And so, you know, I am beyond grateful uh for my my wife, my partner. She's she's a professional as well, and uh we have a communication where we understand uh each boundary. She's there to support me, I'm there to support her. And you know, sometimes she's there to just listen to me. Um, unfortunately, some days are better than others, but uh she's there, she has my back, she has my corner, she knows that I'm working um for her and the family, but she also understands the bigger picture, and so a lot of the decision I made where the position that I'm at now, which in all honesty, it's it was uh kind of an extraordinary case to go from being a senior executive for the Department of Defense to going to a school district. But here's a school district that has 97% poverty. Here's a school district where the actual school district is providing food, shelter, not just the education piece, transportation, we're providing clothes. Sometimes uh we we're even providing washers and dryers so that they can have hygiene. And so it's um as a family, we have this vision to create the biggest impact that we can while we're here. And although this is probably not the last place I'll be, it's what can we as a family really give to the community that's sustainable, that allows it to be better than when we leave, and you know, hopefully we'll we'll get into a place where it's back to a larger global footprint, uh, maybe a little bit more comfortable in enterprise. But while we're here, all of us are on that vision and that mission. And so it makes it a little easier because when I have to work a little extra, or when I have to go meet with uh some of the local uh community local leaders, she's fully supportive, she understands and she has my back. At the same time, she knows I'm gonna be right there to uh ensure that we have our time together as well.

Defining Success Through The Journey

SPEAKER_00 14:11

This is really something to keep in mind, as you mentioned, communication is the key, and you know, Joel, there are so many quotes, there are so many uh versions of success, definitions of success floating around on social media on different platforms, on the internet. So, how do you think a one navigates himself through all these and actually figures out which version of success they want or what is actually meant for them?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Sure. I mean, I I'll just go back to the dictionary, right? Success is the favorable outcome of an endeavor or the accomplishment of a desired goal. That that is the definition of success. So if you reach your goal, congratulations, you are successful, whatever that goal may be, however high or however low. Now, I like to say, don't even think about success. Think about the journey to get the success. And so, what are we doing to get to that successful state? And how are you doing it? And so I would challenge try to be as ethical and transparent as possible. Try to do anything you can to make yourself better and realize we're not perfect at all. Uh, and that's okay. We all make mistakes. Uh for each one of my successes, I could tell you two or three mistakes that went along with it. But are you making the same mistake time after time, or are you learning from it? And if you're not learning from it, are you going after it to find a solution and a problem? Because eventually you'll get to a place where you're solving problems that no one else can figure out, and there's nothing else out there. But you're relying on other people and other experts, and it's a team effort to get there. And so, what's the definition of a success? That's perfectly fine. How you get there, I think it's more important, and then who are you who are you bringing along for that success? So is is your goal big enough where others can join in with you and help you in that journey?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

I really like this perspective. It's such a good day to look at it. And you know, I think this might be something we should all keep in mind because it's not about the superficial definition of success we are all chasing. It must be the journey. It has to do a lot with the journey. Thank you, Joel, for reminding that. And Joel, you know, um what happens when and this is a big part of being a successful person, I would say, as quoted, setbacks, something that we are not all very good at dealing with. So it takes a lot to reach that superficial definition of success, even though even the superficial one I would say. So, how do you uh suggest one deals with these setbacks or handle these failures? Because they definitely come in whenever we are thinking of a successful life. So, what are your suggestions or thoughts on this?

Setbacks That Rewrite Your Purpose

SPEAKER_01 17:34

I'll I'll take it from my personal experience. And so uh not too long ago, I was uh one of the senior um officers. I had a unlimited warrant for the United States Army, and so I was the division chief over the U.S. Army testing evaluation command. And I I we were making gigantic strides and gigantic impacts. And I think uh just looking at the news, you can see a lot of that. Well, I also had another endeavor at the time, it was Etherex, it was a blockchain company, and essentially overnight it went from almost the zero valuation to over a hundred billion dollars, be with a billion. And and so when the federal government came out with the fork in the road and asked the federal government, you know, who would like to resign, I said, okay, let me focus on the company. And so I had resigned from a position where I thought my intention was to go to Washington. I wanted, I've been so successful navigating the bureaucracy and showing efficiency and effectiveness for the federal government. I wanted to be in a head position where we can make gigantic strides and impacts, not just put it as a soundbite for a political campaign, but really show that this is possible because I've done it in every position. And I've had a great team to help get there. And so I was really gunning for being ahead of an agency in a secretary position. Uh, but uh, you know, I understood the president's direction and I and I respect that. And so being where we were at, I said we can make a difference through this. Uh there were a lot of security issues. We had used a chain that had a lot of vulnerabilities, and essentially we had uh we had an adversary have get access to our wallet, and we lost all the liquidity overnight. And so literally, we went from $100 billion to nothing. So now I'm sitting. Essentially, I've given up my dream to be in Washington. I thought there was another dream and it's gone. And and honestly, it it was tough because for the first time, I didn't know what to do, I didn't have any vision. I literally lost my humanity, and and there was nothing that I necessarily did or could have done to do anything different. It was just I was broken and I was at some of the worst parts of my life. And so it really got me to assess what's important. And although I I did go through some really, I think, tough weeks and tough months, uh, with a lot of external things as well, what it did is it brought me from that vision to Gallup, New Mexico, a place that I I would never even stop for gas, to an area that I would have never focused on and never even knew existed at the state that they're in. And and it it drove a fire to be able to make a difference in these children's lives, and also the community, their parents, uh, uh and just being able to provide things that uh they could probably never procure, and nobody would ever know that they would need it. And so I say that to say I I if there's anyone going through a time where you just don't know and it's difficult, I understand. And and it's tough. And there's no one that's gonna tell you otherwise. But it's looking at the bigger picture, looking at uh how you can make an impact, what problem you could solve, what what things can you provide and going after that because the the outcome is so much so much greater than uh you could ever imagine.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

This is such an inspiring, I won't say story, but uh narration and the way you say it all because it was a limbed experience for you. And uh it makes so much sense because success shouldn't cost you yourself, uh your sense of self and everything. And you say that the outcome definitely define it all. Joel, thank you so much for having this conversation with us. And if our listeners want to connect with you or learn more about success, its definitions, and more about your experiences, could you please let us know where they can connect?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Absolutely.

Where To Find Joel’s Work

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Uh so as far as if anybody wants to follow on social media, I try to stay as open as possible. Uh, I do have a website, jewelclumber.com, it has a little bit more portfolio and case studies. But also, uh, there's there's four books uh that I've published that are available internationally: Barnes and Noble's, Amazon, Walmart. And so uh strategic synergy is kind of the baseline if you want to be a leader. If in it potential leadership is more of a framework of how to really get the best out of your team. If you're in a board or in a leadership position, um, and and don't no one's ever kind of you you got the position now, what institutional excellence. Uh, and that's much more for kind of enterprise companies. And then if you're in procurement, which is kind of the area that uh I've spent the last decade really uh focusing on. There's the procurement revolution, and then and for those who work with procurement staff, uh that can show things as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Thank you so much, Joel. I think the books will be of great help to our listeners because there are so many different tiers of workers, and you have all the books for different levels and needs of work that people are having, different definitions of success that we chase. Thank you so much, Joel, and wish you all the best for your books and for our guests. Thank you for being here today.

The Question To End On

SPEAKER_00 24:27

I hope this conversation gave you the permission to ask the other questions, the ones that keep building inside you, and the one which you often dwell on. Like, is it actually worth living the life that we're trading it for? So you don't have to get all the answers right now. You don't have to be willing to listen to the part you that most something needs to shift. You just you just need to keep in mind your concise what you are trading your success for. Take care of that mind. It is the only one you have got. Thank you for being here, and meet you next time.