Why We Repeat The Same Patterns

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We have all done it. Caught ourselves doing the same thing we said we'd never do again. Reacting the same way, choosing the same kind of person, burning out the same way we did last year, just in a different job. And then we asked ourselves the question nobody can answer in the moment. Why do I keep acting this way? Welcome back to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I'm your host, Yosef, and today we are going somewhere most conversations don't go. Not into what you should do differently, but into why you keep doing the same thing in the first place. My guest today is Karen Rubinstein, a radical resilience expert, author of The Return Way, and creator of the six-step framework that helps people across recovery, communities, universities, and corporate teams finally see the pattern underneath their reactions. And by the end of this episode, you'll have a clearer way of looking at your own behavior and a map for what to do with what you find. With that, I welcome my guest Karen to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Hi, thank you for having me, Ysa. So happy to be here. And yes, at the end of this time, uh there everyone listening is gonna know a little bit more on why they're doing something and the tools on like how to change that. So yeah, no, I'm really happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Perfect. So, Karen, I want to start somewhere a little quieter. There's a moment in everyone's life where this kind of work becomes personal, stops being theory, and starts becoming something you actually need. So, what was that moment

Recovery And The Dandelion Root

SPEAKER_00 2:02

for you? When did you stop the patterns from the outside and realize you were you have to go inside now?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That is such an excellent question because I call myself, um, I'll let you know, let everyone know, because I'm very proud of my recovery. I am an alcoholic in recovery for several years now. My uh recovery date is this May, uh, for six years. So for me, I call myself a grateful alcoholic. Grateful not because I have the disease of alcoholism, grateful because I was forced to change because I had to. It was either that or I don't know what would have happened, but it I was going down a very bad, dark path, unhealthy in so many ways. Uh, so what happened was several years I hit a rock bottom and my doctor suggested um I go to rehab, and I was there for a few months. So in rehab, it's not about an um in a 12-step recovery method. It's not about just putting down a bottle because these are symptoms of something underlying. Like, why did I had to figure out why did I ever pick up to begin with? What was going on that I needed to numb or check out? So I had to go really deep to go and find the underlying wounds that I I was covering. So, in uh so that's a short story on that one, but uh so what happened was I diligently worked the program, I got a sponsor, went through the steps, and I have a three-inch binder of inner work that I did to uncover patterns throughout my life and where it all started. If I can, I just wrote a substack about this and it's the perfect, perfect um metaphor. I compare it, actually analogy. I compare um what I've discovered to a dandelion. So you have a dandelion weed, and we feel like we're working on ourselves and pulling out that weed, like, oh, it's okay, now I can move past. But if anyone knows gardening, those weeds, those dandelions can have a very deep root. So we feel, oh, we popped out the first four inches, but we don't know we left a root behind. So what I'm saying is, even though I understand what I'm thinking in my frontal lobe, I don't know the deep roots that are stuck in the back of my subconscious. It's until you go all the way down. Um, and I'll take the the metaphor a little further. The seeds of the dandelion have one plant, many seeds landing in different places. So even though we think we have different problems, they all come from the same plant. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I just yeah. So um, so this is all self-discovery combined with real science. If you go on my website um and go to the the page on the return way, the methodology I created and wrote about, you can see the science behind it from Carl Jung and um others. So um, but I I'll stop there. If uh I I could go on about the return method. What would you what would you like, Han?

The Return Way Six Steps

SPEAKER_00 5:24

So uh I want to talk about the return way, like you have reveal, explore, trace, uncover, rewrite, nurture, these six steps. So, for someone who is listening to them right now, I want you to first explain them in in the simplest of languages, and then we can move ahead.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Absolutely. And the reason why. So, what happened was in my recovery, a couple of years ago, my husband came down. He went from stage one to stage four melanoma. He's okay now, it's been resolved. But during that time, I I we were both going through a lot. So, what happened was I was very calm. I I approached it well, I was getting through, and people looked at me and they said, How are you doing this? How are you so calm, at peace, accepting, grateful? And I thought, and they kept asking me, people were like, I want what you have. So I sat down and I wrote it. And the the I wrote the methods, like I really went through it. How did this work? And then I tried to think of an acronym that would be easy. So return, the returned way. It's a return back to our true selves. It's under, it's uncovering all the layers or um going deep down into the root. Return. It's reveal the story R, reveal what is happening, pull back from a situation. I know that if I get agitated, I can look to my emotions and realize these are flags, these are signals that something is disturbed within me. Notice me. It is not other people. I cannot be affected by other people and things. We think we can, but what's happening is there's an old wound. So I will stop and and realize what is what is it I'm feeling? Anger. Reveal the story. What is happening? And I'm gonna go through the letters real quick, and then I'll give a sample an example. So explore the thoughts. Thoughts could trace the patterns. Where have I been and where have I felt this before? This feels familiar. Uncover the fear because underneath everything that is a disturbance within us is a fear. Now we've done that. Now we're getting a clearer picture that it's not the situation we're saying, oh, this is an old story. So what can I do now? I can rewrite the story. Let's give it a different approach. Now I am more at peace. I can approach this situation from my heart, not from my anger or from my fear. So now I nurture this new truth and I behave differently. So we have gone from a reaction that we could have had to a controlled response, and it can be very quick. I will give an example.

A Marriage Moment Rewritten

SPEAKER_01 8:37

This happened, I always use this example because it's pretty clear. This happened several months ago, maybe a year ago, with my husband. Um, I had something I really wanted to talk to him about, and it was heart, you know, like it was important to me. And after talking for a couple of minutes, I realized he was not paying attention at all. And he even had the phone out, you know, or he was totally distracted. And I felt it. I felt anger. Like I knew I something was off. So I stopped. Now I know to stop, as I said. So reveal the story. So I it's able to pull back almost like a reporter at a scene, like a crime scene or something. You're a reporter, you can remove. So I look at it and I say, My husband is not paying attention to me. And when I'm speaking, that's the story. Now I'm exploring the thoughts. And if I stop and think about it, because the thoughts are quit, but if I try to reel it back in, I'll be like, okay. He should listen to me. There's the shoulds. Never should on yourself. He should listen to me. I'm not important. He doesn't care. All these things. Can you see the how a thought will be just because of that? So I have these thoughts, and I'm like, oh, okay. So explore the thoughts. Trace the pattern. Hmm, I have felt this before. And you don't have to, you can just, whatever situation pops up, trace the pattern. Immediately I can go, oh, when I was growing up, I came from a large family. I was the youngest. No one ever paid attention to me. I didn't feel important. Oh, okay. It the now it's dawning on me. Okay, this is an old story. Uncover the fear. The fear is I feel emotionally abandoned. I feel I have a fear of not mattering, that I know that I am valueless, that now I can breathe. Now, okay, now I go in to rewrite the story. Okay, my now let's, and it's not just positive thinking, like let's slap a note on it, but let's breathe into this situation and give it more of a reality on another level. Okay, my husband came home from work, he's exhausted. My husband is my best friend and always supportive of me. I do matter, I do have value. Okay, now I really my chest is open, I'm breathing, I'm calm, and now let's nurture that truth. And I speak softly and through love. And I say, hey hon, I really have something. Um, can I have your attention for a moment? I do have something I'd like to talk to you about. Are you too tired to take it in right now? Um, and I remember when this happened, and but people can hear when you're out speaking from love. I think you, you know, it's a different level. And he listened and he said, Um, I am so sorry. He goes, I'm concerned about one of my um my employees. Uh something happened at work today. I wasn't paying attention. Can I clear this up? I just need to send a text really quickly. And then we move this method. We we've been married now over 30 years. This has brought us closer because I can honestly say that in the past, if I might have addressed it with he's not paying attention, I would have just gone from the feeling and feeling a righteous, very righteous, that I have a right to my anger. How dare he not listen to me? And the old me might have stepped in and go, well, um well, well, I don't know what I would have said, but I would not have been happy. And maybe, you know, maybe held a grudge. Um, but now, so this brings about a connect and connection with people rather than a distance. Because at our base level, and what we uncover when we go deep is that we're all all born with love. We are just basically love. When we can reach our truth and approach life that way, my life is so much easier now. So that is the return way.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

You know what I am hearing is that this is not a fast process and it it is not supposed to be one. I think it's a real return all the way down and back, which brings me to the part of change nobody likes talking about.

When The Method Feels Stuck

SPEAKER_00 13:37

So what happens when it stops working or when it feels like it's you know, it feels like it stops working.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah, you know what, honestly, um, because uh I was stuck for about two and a half weeks, and I just I'm so glad we're talking today because I just had insight yesterday. I was going into I'll say a borderline depression, I felt blue, I felt blah uh for two and a half weeks. Now I just launched the book and I'm going to hold it up. Here it is. Anyway, I just launched the book two and a half weeks ago. I couldn't understand. I couldn't understand. I had to really go deep. And when I did the return method, finally, I did it multiple times, but I wasn't going down into a level. I mean, there's certain different um levels that you go down. I had to go down to a very deep core wound. So sometimes this is going to come quickly. And the more you do it and the more you uncover, people wonder, oh, I must have a hundred fears. No, no, actually, our brain has a little file cabinet of only about several, and it will pull whatever full feels familiar, it will pull that file, like, oh, this is the same situation, if that makes sense. So I had to go further back into my file cabinet and realize this was such a deep wound of trauma. Is it at, you know, for the return way? If you're going to do it all the time, if something is disturbing, I would recommend talking with a trusted friend, uh a trusted spiritual guide, a therapist on a more of a level when you get comfortable, or for just like easy ones. This one I'm I'm comfortable enough about with myself. I was actually thinking of asking a therapist if it went further. But today I have such a lightness. And today I revealed a very core issue and I brought it into light. And once you see things, and this is something that I'm gonna have to keep working on. And um, but I bring it into light and it has given me peace. And I realize it's still unresolved, but maybe a lot less unresolved. Now I have more truth. The more I know of myself, and Aristotle, you know, all the great philosophers always said the best thing that we could ever do is know ourselves. That's where the peace comes from, from understanding how our mind works. Um, so now today I have peace. So yeah, are there times I get stuck? Absolutely. But for the most part, you know, like the more and more I do this and have an understanding, I'm easy. Oh, I can actually go right into the file myself and be like, oh, it's that one. Okay, I get it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Okay.

Where To Connect And Read More

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Oh Karen, for people who want to connect with you, want to, who want to read your interesting substack, where can you do that?

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Oh, yeah, the Substack. So I read, um, I write it. It's um, let me see. My Substack is oh, Karen Rubinstein Out Loud. Actually, my social handles are at Karen Rubinstein Out Loud, and it's R-U-B-I-N-S-T-E-I-N. Um, because I live my recovery out loud and I live my life out loud so I can help others. So that is that. And they could buy, oh, and they uh can buy my book at Amazon.com, uh backslash author backslash Karen Rubinstein, and it's the return way. Finally, an answer to why do I act this way and a way to change.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Perfect. And to everyone listening, all these links are in the show notes, so just go and check those out. Karen, is there any last message that you want to leave us with?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

No, because uh this was so enjoyable. Um, I guess the last message is that, you know, for years I really felt like I suffered. I had a chronic depression from the time I was 17 till about five years ago after working on myself. Uh, chronic depression, antidepressants, sleeping pills. Um, I I was in a lot of pain. And the reason why I do this work is because now I realize I didn't have to be. And I just really am spreading the word on how to turn things around. So nobody I have a little slogan. I've been to hell and back so many times. I could have been a tour guide. So yeah, I stand there. I don't want you to go. Let me be your tour guide, leading you out of there or away from it. And that is what I want to leave with.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Karen, this has been a really grounding conversation. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Thank you. I feel very blessed. Thank you. Very lovely meeting here. Thank you.

A Quiet Ask Before You Scroll

SPEAKER_00 18:56

And to everyone listening, if something in this conversation made you pause tonight, I would request you not to scroll past that all. Because that is usually where the work starts. You don't have to figure it all out before bed. Just be honest about what came up. And that is enough for tonight. This was Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I am Yusuf. I thank my guest Karen for showing, and I thank you all for listening. Take care of yourselves, and we'll see you in the next one.