When Achievement Hides Fear

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Listeners, whenever we think about, you know, high achieving or high achiever, we always kind of imagine this, you know, it it looks beautiful from the outside. I mean, you're busy, like the calendar, it's full, uh, you have got that reputation for being the one who handles it. And then that quiet, you know, pride, sometimes that ego of being needed. But then underneath all of that, I believe it's much of an older question. That if I stop performing, am I still worth anything? That question, it doesn't always show up in words. It shows up probably through your body. In the strange guilt that kind of creeps in on maybe a slow weekend. And it's almost never about ambitionlessness, it's about something that started long before the career did.

Defining Trauma-Driven Productivity

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Welcome to Helldy Mind Healthy Life. I am Sana, and today we are sitting with a conversation that I think a lot of women they are going to feel in their body before they feel in their mind. We are talking about trauma-driven productivity, the kind of success that looks like winning and it feels like surviving. And we are asking what it actually takes to come home to yourself when you have spent years proving you deserve to take up space. And my guest today, Felicia Brown, she's a licensed professional counselor and a trauma-informed speaker who works with high-achieving women caught in burnout, overthinking, and also productivity-based self-worth. So let's begin. And Felicia, it is so good to have you here. Welcome to Healthy Wine, Healthy Life.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Thank you. I am so glad to be here. And you are right, I think this is a conversation that so many women could benefit from.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Totally, totally.

What We Get Wrong About Burnout

SPEAKER_01 2:12

I wholeheartedly agree. And something that I keep coming back to, Felicia, is this idea that uh, you know, especially in high-achieving women, burnout, it gets explained most of the times as time management problem. You're not well organizing, or you're not probably disciplined enough, or it's too much of work, too much of stress, just take a quick uh vickay and everything will be solved. And and you know, we get we get to hear statements like she took on too much, she didn't set boundaries. And I think that framing, yeah, it is important, but it actually misses what's really happening underneath. So that's why I want I would want to start from here. What are we getting wrong about why high-achieving women burn out?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

I love everything you just said, because you are correct so many times. It's oh, set better boundaries, just take a vacation, increase self-care, just to say no, right? And what that is really doing is it's sending the message that the person, that high-achieving woman, that they're the problem, that it's their fault, they're feeling the way that they're feeling. And if they were just better, they wouldn't feel this way. But the problem is that's not true. And they already feel like they're not enough. They already feel like an imposter, like they don't have any worth outside of what they achieve, and that if they stop achieving, people will realize that they have been lying or making it up. And even though that's not the truth, that's what it feels like. And so one of the things I say is you don't need another productivity or scheduling hack. What you need is a nervous system that feels safe regardless of whether or not you are achieving so that your mindset and the way you approach your work shifts from I have to do this because this is what creates my worth to those around me, to I am doing things that align with my passions and what I want. And if I say no, that's just as honorable as saying yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

And and you know, this is actually a very, I believe, Felicia, a very honestly tough spot to be in when um even your own um, I shouldn't say comfort, but well-being and your own uh uh emotional, physical safety, everything has to be taken care of by you because the kind of expectation that has been set that you are capable enough, capable enough to figure out everything, even if you know honestly it looks sometimes very difficult or you know, sometimes impossible because of the the kind of you know system that has been created, the expectations, the conditioning. So I believe um it's actually a very tough spot to be in.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Oh, absolutely, because once again, as you said, the societal pressures put on women are impossible to meet. We ask women to be the perfect mother and act as if motherhood is their whole purpose and not a career. And yet we expect women to work and in their career act as if that is the most important thing and that they don't have any other responsibilities. And even if you don't have children, this still gets put on you that it's almost worse in some cases because, well, you don't have kids, you can just do it. What do you mean you can't work this weekend? What could you possibly have going on? You don't even have children, right? Yeah. We use this, we we weaponize this either way in society, and women can't win. And so I think part of the work that I do as well is helping women realize that they are not the problem and they are not broken. The systems that we are living in were designed to create this life that's unsustainable, and yet when we can't sustain it, then we are looked at as if we are the problem. Totally, totally, Felicia.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Oh, and um let's also kind of think from this uh angle, Felicia.

Why Your Nervous System Chases Achievement

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Um, you have talked about trauma changing the brain. I and I don't want to skip past that. Um, but for a woman who has been running on adrenaline on uh adrenaline for years, and then you know, um the ambition is kind of the mask of this. What is actually happening in her nervous system that she might not realize?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, so this is so interesting because most women really don't understand the connection between what they are feeling subconsciously and their actions because that's not really something you're ever taught in school. And so one of the things I work to educate people on is that the nervous system and the brain, their main job is not to keep you happy, their main job is to keep you alive. The brain and the nervous system's job is to keep you alive. And so when we are conditioned to believe that underachievement is not only unacceptable, but really dangerous because if you don't achieve, then you don't get the praise, you don't get the recognition, you don't get the good job, you don't get into the good schools. And in our society, that's what we think is the most important. And so that subconscious really gets trained throughout your life that achievement is the only real form of safety. And so, when that is the lens your nervous system is working through, if you are not achieving or you are slowing down to rest, or you are saying no to an opportunity that could advance your career, your subconscious is saying, this is dangerous, this is not safe for us. And then comes the guilt and the shame and the uncomfortable emotions. And that then just confirms, oh, well, I just need to work harder. And so it gets us in this really negative loop that leads to more and more burnout and overwhelm as we progress through adulthood. That is so right.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

That is so right, Felicia. And and I also believe that there are women listening right now who have been told uh their whole types that whole lives that they are quote unquote in intense or quote-unquote type A, or you know, I'm just just wired this way. And uh what you're indicating, Felicia, is that that some of that wiring, it it's not a personality, it's it's uh it's a shield or it's a survival adaptation that got really just good at its job.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah, 100%. And once again, that is weaponized against women, right? If you're too tight, or if you're too intense, or you're too much, whatever that looks like, then that's weaponized against you. But also, if you're too tight B and unorganized, then that's against you, right? And so you really can't win as far as society goes, but you're right, it's the nervous system that got really good at its job of protecting you and knowing what it takes to feel safe and to feel like it's surviving. Unfortunately, what happens then is we weren't designed to run at that high level continuously our whole lives. And eventually we break down, whether that is physically, emotionally, mentally. And then women look around and are like, okay, everything I've been doing for so long no longer works. How do I fix myself? And that's usually when women come to me. How do I fix myself? I know I'm the problem. I know that I can't handle these things. Tell me how to fix it and I'll fix it, right? Because once again, they've been so conditioned that if something is wrong, they are the problem. When in reality, they just have never felt safe just being them.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Absolutely. Absolutely. And

Rest Guilt And Body Warning Signs

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I think uh something that you mentioned, Felicia, and this is such a nuanced, uh nuanced uh, I think, uh uh take on particularly this aspect around the fact that that rest or that pause, or sometimes, you know, quote unquote, we kind of categorize that type B. When that guilt comes in, you know, let's say I I want to take a time off because now it's become too much for me. I know my body is giving me the signals, I know that uh I need to take that break. Um, but there's also this guilt that how it will be perceived, you know, more than others by myself. And um I believe what you're saying that is that guilt is not a sign that, you know, I am lazy. It's just a sign that the nervous system has learned to associate or um identify rest with danger. And once that is understood, I believe rest stops being a discipline problem, it becomes a healing one.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yes, exactly. And so many times women will say, I feel guilty resting, or even if I go on vacation, I'm checking my email or I'm checking in, or if I'm not, then I'm planning a vacation where I'm constantly doing something, learning, exploring, and not because that's what they find interesting, but because once again, vacation can't be just about resting because, well, then you're lazy, as you said. When in reality, I find for most women, laziness doesn't really exist, but they have been so conditioned to constantly be working that anytime they aren't, they use self-same to say, Oh, I'm lazy, so I need to get up and do the thing. Even when everything in them is screaming, you just need to rest.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah. Yeah. I think uh it comes down to that feeling of guilt. Um,

When Joy Feels Like A Risk

SPEAKER_01 13:45

because probably from your childhood or maybe in your formative years, um, you have kind of adapted this belief system that, you know, for example, um in in uh my culture, there's this, and this is something that I I sometimes, you know, it can sound very silly, but sometimes you kind of, you know, um, I have this thought that if I'm enjoying too much or I am uh too much of happy, I do not deserve that because uh this will result in something very bad, or I'll become irresponsible, or this will cost me something. So let's not enjoy too much.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yes. Yes. And I love that you said, like, this might sound silly, but in reality, that's what so many women feel. And yet they don't want to verbalize it because they're afraid that it would sound silly or somebody would judge them for it. But that's the reality of what they're experiencing. It's that I don't want to be perceived as irresponsible. I don't want to be perceived as lazy or as an underachiever. And if I am enjoying too many good things, then that must mean I am slacking off in some area or I have forgotten to do something or I'm not paying attention to my responsibilities. And so even then, that's that nervous system kind of constantly scanning because it's not wired at this point for fun and relaxation and safety. It's

Calm Can Trigger Chaos

SPEAKER_00 15:28

wired for danger. And so if the danger isn't around, it's like your subconscious and your nervous system don't know what to do, which again sounds ridiculous. Like, no, we should want to be happy and relaxed. But the brain really loves predictability. And that's why for some people, when there is calm, they have to create chaos because calm feels unfamiliar, but chaos is predictable. They know how to live and navigate in that world. And so, just like you were saying, like if I'm having too much fun or enjoying it too much, it's almost as if your nervous system is like, this isn't what we're used to. I don't know how to navigate with this. How do I get us back to an area that I know how to navigate? Oh, shame and guilt. And there's where that self-talk comes in.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Absolutely. Absolutely. And Felicia also you mentioned uh something about that when you know women they first realize that yes, and they say that yes, I know that I am the problem, or okay, just give me something so that I can fix myself. I think this is um this is where we kind of believe that you know uh uh either we have to cope up with with using some kind of uh a routine or maybe a checklist, or I'm already broken, so maybe I have to try 100 things, and even those hundred things are not working, I don't know, maybe you know, the next hundred one first thing is it's also not going to work with me. So I'm already broken, I'm already damaged. So, how does exactly the real work look like? You know,

The Unglamorous Work Of Slowing Down

SPEAKER_01 17:20

not the aesthetics of it or not the Instagram version of self-care, but then the slow, unglamorous work of learning to live in your body without constantly proving yourself.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah, and it really is unglamorous, as you said. And sometimes I will say, if you want the glamorous aesthetic, that's not working with me. But if you want the real deep work and change, that's where I come in. And so one of the things that I do, and and this is kind of a strategy I tell people, is can you sit for five minutes with just your thoughts? No phone, no music, no book playing, nothing. Can you sit for five minutes and just feel your body and notice your thoughts? That sounds very simple, but it is extremely difficult for most of the women that I work with. Yes. And so sometimes I'll say, if five is too intense, it's too much, and you feel like jittery and crawling out of your skin and you can't do it, can you do three minutes? And sometimes my clients can't do three minutes. So we start with one. And it sounds simple, but what it's doing is it's forcing us to remove all distractions and just be with ourselves for a very short amount of time, but just noticing our thoughts. And I'll tell women just notice what comes into your mind. Don't focus on anything, don't go down a rabbit hole, just notice the thought. You can even say to yourself, okay, Brain, thank you for that thought and let it go. Notice what you're feeling in your body. I teach this thing of the idea of a body scan, starting at the top of your head and skinning all the way down to your toes. What are you feeling? Do you notice that your shoulders are tight? Is your jaw clenched? Is the is your tongue on the roof of your mouth? Are you sitting in a way that's uncomfortable? Did you notice you had that twinge in your back, or is this the first time you're realizing it? Because so often we don't connect with our bodies. We're in our heads a lot. We're constantly moving, constantly achieving. And it's not until the body is screaming a lot of times that we even take a chance to recognize it. And so some of that work is really all about building a tolerance for slowing down. And that is hard for women to do. And yet, I will tell people if you want something you've never had, feeling safe, resting, right? You've got to do something you've never done. And that's building really this tolerance to handle what it looks like to not be constantly running from your thoughts and your feelings and being able to sit with them and retrain yourself to know that you are safe even when you're doing absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Now I I thousand percent agree with you, uh, Felicia, that yes, it it sounds simple, but you know, because once again, I believe that we have this um uh perception that um anything which you know, especially in the wellness conversations, all of these have to be like, you know, sounding like hacks or kind of very uh sometimes complicated or very um rich and uh sometimes out of access, inaccessible ways and you know, practices. But sometimes um they are simple, but the thing is that you know, uh when we start doing it, it may look tough in the beginning, but it's it's that, you know, um gap between that starting point and kind of adopting it as a habit or as a practice uh consistently daily, where kind of you know it's a litmus test for us.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah, and I always say too, simple doesn't mean easy. Sometimes the simplest things are really the hardest because we've now been conditioned to make everything really complicated. And simple seems oh, that would be easy. And then you go to do the simple thing and you realize how uncomfortable and hard it really is.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Uh and uh Felicia, before we uh wrap up, for the listener, I mean, if a woman is listening right now and she thinks that, okay, fine, I can start with this, but what about you know, life is is you know, it can throw curveballs, maybe I may hear a setback, and then I may realize that I was never really healing in the first place.

Staying Steady Through Setbacks

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Um, how I can make it sustainable, how I make sure that I do not slip back into the old way of being. And if I even if I do, then I can at least come back to myself without that shame or guilt spiral.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yeah, and once again, this goes back to women worrying that they are the problem. And so one of the things I talk a lot about is naming the problem as the problem and knowing that you will have the tools to navigate it. Because healing isn't pretty and it's not linear. And sometimes we do fall back into those old habits because, again, that's what makes us feel safe. That knowing that once you do this work of really understanding how to regulate your nervous system, understanding how to connect with yourself, that even if you slip back into that old pattern, you already have the skills. And it's not that you are the problem, it's that you are recognizing, oh, my subconscious wasn't feeling safe in that environment. So that's why I slipped into those patterns. Now I'm going to remind myself that I don't have to operate that way to be safe. And I'm gonna go back to those basics. And that's really what I teach women when they work with me individually or in my group um setting, kind of more of these types of strategies, self-talk, change in the way they're thinking, um, that don't go with these, you know, hacks or aesthetic looking tips, really that deeper work of understanding their brain and their nervous system so that even if they're in a situation they slip back, they don't feel like they're stuck there.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

And um,

How To Find Felicia Brown

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Felicia, if our listeners they would like to get a hold of uh the work that you are doing, and if they would like to also connect with you further for exploring more about this, what would be the best way for that?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah, the easiest way to find me, and I would love to connect with you or even just hear what you thought about this episode, is to find me on Instagram, TikTok, or Facebook. And I am Felicia Brown LPC on all of those. And the link in my bio for those also has the direct link for how you can um just sign up to work with me directly. But if you message me on any of those platforms, I can tell you more about the work that I do and to see if I would be a good fit for what you're looking for. So Felicia Brown, LPC on Instagram, uh Facebook, and TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Awesome. So, listeners, I'm gonna drop all the links in the show notes along with this uh episode. So just find them attached on whichever platform you're tuning into, Healthy Mind, Healthy Life right now. And Felicia, thank you so much. First of all, yes, this was the kind of conversation I believe a lot of women they have been waiting to hear without realizing or knowing it. And secondly, um, every time I I get to have you know conversation on on something like this, for me also it's katharic. So thank you so much. Yes, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. And

Closing Reflection And Share

SPEAKER_01 25:54

to everyone listening, if something what Felicia shared, what we talked about today in this episode, it landed with you, it connected with you. Please do sit with it for a moment before you scroll. Because you don't have to fix anything today. You just have to notice, you just have to acknowledge. And if this is a conversation that found you for a reason, do share it with a friend or your loved one, your colleague you are thinking of right now. Because sometimes the most healing thing that we can do is hand each other the words we didn't know we needed. So, this has been the Helly Mind Helly Life. I am Sana. Take care of yourself this week, gently, and I'll catch you in the next episode. Thank you so much.