The Myth Versus The Reality

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Dear listeners, there is a version of fatherhood that looks like the Instagram read, the camping trips, the matching outfits, the moments that make it look uh uncomplicated and full of wonder. And then there's the actual version like the two way more the question of whether you are doing enough, being enough, or showing up in the right ways, right? So the strange experience of watching yourself become more patient and more terrified at that same time, right? So today's guest, um I I'd say today's guest hosts a podcast about fatherhood from Sydney, and uh I have a feeling that this conversation is going to be exactly the kind most cats need to hear, and obviously really have. And I have to say, my guest today is the co-host of Papa Lens Podcast, a show uh about fatherhood and the universe filled by the two mental ages ads, shining tales of modern madness, and that is easygoing honest and care for whatever conversation needs to happen. Like I started Artie Jones. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Uh thank you, Avik. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Amazing. Artie,

Why He Built Papa Lens

SPEAKER_01 2:01

like uh before we go anywhere, I want to start with the name Papa Lens. I mean, it's very uh very uh I mean it gives you that feeling, right? So what is the lens that you are talking or you're looking through as a father? Like, what does that framing mean to you? What made you uh want to build a whole podcast around it?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Well, to be honest, when before my children were born, which was now over 20 years ago, that my life was one of like what's next, what's next, kind of drinking, partying, just doing whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted, without much direction. But it at the same time, it had more anxiety, it had more uh the un undesirableness, let's just say. And there was something that switched in my head that when the children were born, I no longer wanted any of that, and I wanted something that was I couldn't, I can't even to this day fully put words to it, but I just knew that that they changed my life that moment, and so but what come to come to the question with Papa Lens is that when we decided that name, it was looking through the lens of our life as our children have grown up and reflecting on that, but also we do talk about multiple topics that you know is is impactful across the plethora of of life, but fundamentally coming back to what is it going to take for the next generation of us to live at least as good, if not better, lives than what we had.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Uh, one

Fatherhood And Male Mental Health

SPEAKER_01 3:56

more thing I want to definitely ask about because when we're talking about this, I think we also should talk about the uh fatherhood and the mental health. Like fatherhood and mental health are two things that don't often get discussed in the same sentence, um, obviously, especially for the men. Uh so most conversation about the fatherhood focuses on the practical side, the role, responsibilities. And very few uh ask, like, how a father is actually doing inside all of that, right? So, what what has your experience been like both personally and in the conversation on your show?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Well, it's it's a bit of a it's a bit of a double-edged question in the sense that um generally male mental health isn't talked about as much as it should be. But with particular to fathers, we are seen as the figurehead, the leader of the family, the the provider. And the therefore you need to have an approach to it that is at the very face value, is that you are in control, you're in charge. So it's up to you when everything else is going wrong, that you need to kind of have that vow to the self that you will do whatever it takes to make sure these children have what it needs to flourish, have a good opportunity. But there's there's a bit of an old saying, and and I I make this joke to my wife, is that who's the one that goes to check out the bang in the middle of the night, you know, and it's it's inevitably me. And and I think that where men don't do themselves much justice is that we have been brought up, and it's across cultures of it. This is not any one country, this is across cultures. We've been told men just need to shut up and get on with it. Uh, and and it's not okay to talk, it's not okay to share. Like there's most of the uh groups around the toddlers, around the young children is very mother-centric, and men just seem to be kind of you know, a bit of a butt of the jokes, a bit of like you can get get on with it. But the thing is that if the father's mind is of is is growing, if they are fulfilled, if they are feeling personal growth, then that will lead to better outcomes for their children. Because unless you have your own ship in order, which is the only thing you can truly control, is the self, you're going to project that onto others. But unfortunately, the the idea of challenges that the the men go through through fatherhood, particularly I would say things like anxiety, pressure, um, feeling you're not enough. And and also the smaller things like uh the child would maybe run to the mother when they're hurt. And from an outside perspective, other people will often like look to the mother for answers. And I even even I don't know if guys have noticed it, but sometimes when you go to the doctor, even they would generally talk to the mother over the father. And I think that what you can do is change that at change that at home by actually doing your part within the home and then projecting that outward. So what the children see are two equal partners that are working in synergy to give them the best possible chance to have a life that is something that resembles peace and something that resembles responsibility and something that resembles success.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah, I agree. And

Loneliness And Finding Your People

SPEAKER_01 7:39

uh the particular loneliness of modern fatherhood, because men in general have fewer spaces to process things out loud, and I have to say, like, fathers have even fewer. So where do you go? Like, or have you found other dads going to actually walk through the stuff that doesn't fit neatly uh into the dad role?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah, so look, it's it's a bit of a difficult one because there are, as you know, with personality, there are many different types of personalities in the world, and so the answer I'm gonna give is going to be focused more on the set on myself as opposed to to the people that are on other extremes of the spectrum to me. But I would lean towards introverted that needs quality company. So what I've done over the last uh 20 plus years is I've always set aside time to look forward to outside of the family with a small group of friends. And when I've moved countries, so for example, I've lived in a number of countries, I've always set out to, and it takes time, but find a couple of like-minded fathers who have children similar age within you know five or six years, give or take, and set aside time for maybe just every eight weeks, get together, have a barbecue, have a have a little chat. And then I try to always have someone that I can call outside the family unit, uh, which would be generally a male friend, and uh just have that conversation. Now, friendship though, it does take work. So, for example, what I'll often bring to friendships is a practical knowledge, like able to repair cars, do um basic plastering, basic um, you know, general duties, carpentry. Uh, I'm not a tradesperson as such, but it's it's the kind of those skills that they're the type of people I like to associate with. So I tend to have make my interests in line with them, but also are practical. So, for example, um my my this is a few years ago now, but one of my 17-year-olds, they bought a car that needed, they bought it on a whim because they didn't know what they were doing. I should have educated them better growing up, but because of those, uh arrived home, needed a new radiator, needed, needed a bit of work, the the water pump had broken, and just called a couple of people that I knew, and we used that as a bonding experience to to repair this car. So it's it's kind of going out the way, but I would say, Avik, and I I don't want to speak for you, but men tend to do things well side by side, such as like having a beer, playing darts, um, fixing a car, doing repairs. But you know, I I wouldn't be the sort of guy that could sit down and and just have a coffee and and natter about, you know, the weather, for want of a better word. So I think the the answer to the core answer is find people who are in your framework, who have similar goals to you in life, but also be willing and be willing to do it fast, is if they are not fulfilling you in any way and they're taking more energy than you can give, be willing to walk away as well. And that's been one of my most powerful things. So the friends I have, I'll hold on to, but it's earned. And many people come and go, and and that is also part of it, part of the experience. But the the true friends try and hang on to them.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

And

The Modern Madness Of Providing

SPEAKER_01 11:25

um, I definitely want to ask you about the modern madness, like uh the phrase in your show's description, right? So, this is particularly madness of being uh dad right now. So um in 2025 in Australia or anywhere, like what has changed about the experience of motherhood and uh compared to what uh your I mean our own dads uh lived through. And is that is that change uh mostly progress, mostly loss, or something more complicated?

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Well, look, I won't I won't get political, so I'll stay focused on things that are tangible across the world. Okay. So for example, when my um when my father was younger, um his house price to wages was about times 2.5 to 3. Um in India, they've had the same thing. In Middle East, same thing, slightly different. Japan, a little bit off, but you get the point globally. What's changed now is that when I grew up, although I bought at a five to one ratio to income when I bought my first home, it was about 4.5 to 5 to 1 ratio to buy this first home. The pathway for me from when I was about 13, 14 was quite clear. It was you work hard, you get a degree, you get a job, you get married, you have children, you get a house. And it was that simple. And that's how it worked. What's gone wrong, and this is globally, is that they have basically devalued money to a point that inflation has caused the houses to rise. They've also increased competition for less resources, and what that's done is it's it's caused the father's message to have to change because I can no longer just tell my kids go out, get a job, get married, and get a house. Because the game doesn't work that way anymore. And it hurts me. It hurts me deeply. It doesn't, because that was the message. So the madness of fatherhood is having to navigate in real time, it making sure the children have hope, they have desire, they feel this purpose. Because honestly, the purpose has been taken away. And and I it's it's it's something that as the head of the house, you have to, you have to instill this is meaningful, find meaning because the value proposition has changed, but the human experience has not. We are born and then we die, and life what happens in between. And it's up to the father to explain to the kids how they get the most out of that.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Exactly.

Social Media Pressure And Money Traps

SPEAKER_01 14:22

And very, very, very well explained that say social media's role in uh in all of this because uh fatherhood now happens at a constant comparative backdrop. Uh, I mean, what does that do to a man's sense of whether uh he's doing it well enough or not? So, what do you have to say?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

So, what what I will say on this is to any men listening, you do not have to play that game. There is only one thing within your local control, and it sits right here. It's it's your heart, and your heart is how you love, it's how you feel, it's how you interact with the world. I will not lie to you, there is pressure out there because the entire system tells you you need things to be complete. You need a new car, you need the latest phone, you need expensive clothes. You do not. What you actually need is to be in control of yourself, to appreciate the small things and teach your children to appreciate the small things. Take them for a walk in a clean area, let them feel the grass, take them out at night on a cloudless night and look at the stars and be in awe. Nature, once you've taken care of the fundamentals, I'm not saying if you if you can't eat, you know what I mean? This this is doesn't you've got to survive. But once survival's taken care of, please understand that it doesn't have to be a competition, but you have been taught almost from birth that is a scurstity mindset, but you don't need to think that way. And if you can just change one thing, this is what I would recommend buy a safe car for cash and never ever again buy anything with money that you can you do not have. So never never again, and from there, bring it back to ask yourself every day, what do I need versus what do I want? And you will find you need very little other than respect, dignity, and your children to give you the purpose to keep getting up and keep moving forward. But the truth is, if you are thinking that way, you need to ask yourself, am I competing with them or am I competing with my own inadequacies? And once you once you realize you're actually only competing with yourself, you can actually start to change things. And that whole mind shift will shift, it will take a big step, and and you will start realizing that the only thing that truly matters is you and your family and friends that mean something can add value to your life. Very true, very sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

And

Authority Trust And Raising Adults

SPEAKER_01 17:27

okay, and one more thing is very important raising the children in this world, right? Uh, what is the thing that you most want your uh children to take from how you showed up as a father? Not the achievements or the activities, but something deeper about uh who you were in the relationship with them, and uh what does good fathering look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Okay, so firstly, I wanted them to know from a young age that I am not their friend. Okay, I am I will protect them, I will love them, I will lay my life down for them, but we're not buddies. I am here as a guide, and I will guide you the best I can so that you can lead a life that is as fulfilled as possible. And in in in that, what that means is that I it doesn't mean we can't be friends, we can't be friendly, but I'm not their friend. I am the figure of authority, I am the figure of and I'm also the major, the major benefactor, and just a little joke here, Avik, but they they say communism doesn't work, but in a father's home, it does work because the father goes and does all the work and everybody else, you know, it's the food and the shelter. But but joking aside, look, fathers are in a situation where you need to set your children up for the big world. And let me tell you this the world is indifferent to you and to your children. And it doesn't mean you don't need to instill hope or purpose, because of course you do. But that purpose, you have to make sure that they know it is from them and for them. Because if you allow it, if you allow it, the world will creep in, it will tell them what to think, what to feel, you know, it will tell it will tell them ways to think. Now, I've always, always had this thing with my children where if I do something that they perceive is wrong, I actually allow them to voice it in a safe area. And then the other thing that we do is if if they tell the truth and they've done something wrong, the the consequence is only a conversation. But if they lie and then subsequently comes out that what's occurred was uh was was the truth and that they've lied about it, then they have a much bigger problem. So what I've tried to instill to the children is that life is absolutely beautiful, it is there for the taking. You have a soul and you are made of the same energy that created this universe in the first place, infinite potential, you are infinite potential embodied, and children represent that better than anyone. But also, there are predators out there, and there are things out there that we wish they weren't. And so when you go to the world, you by the time I I when I say I release you, by the time you no longer need me, I I want to be satisfied. I've done all I can to prepare you to face the world.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

That's interesting, really interesting.

One Percent Better Each Day

SPEAKER_01 20:51

And uh, today, if you have to give one advice, special advice to the dads, what that AB.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Um, the my special advice to you guys would be listen, fellas, life isn't fair, no one's coming to save you, okay? It is you against the world, but in that there is hope because you are capable, you can drive real change. And all I would say is look at yourself, reflect on the things you do well and do more of them, and look at the things that could be better, look if you get a bit angry too quickly, look if you're you're a bit snappy, and just make one small step just once, and that will give you a framework to then take the next step and the next step. And if every day you improve yourself by just one percent, within a hundred days, you're a different person.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Very, very true, yeah. And it's

Where To Connect And Closing

SPEAKER_01 21:55

that's a great advice, I would say, and uh also uh for the listeners, if someone wants to connect with you, uh, want to have a discussion, or uh, also want to uh get uh involved, uh, know more about your podcast, which will be the great medium to connect.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Oh, no, thank you. So um, Avik, so of course, Papa Lens podcast is there, but my primary focus is actually on personality and the self. So if you guys check out personalitypeak.com, this is a platform that I have built from the ground up that gives as detailed insights as I believe, as I believe are possible on across six dimensions into the self. But the what that does, that just gives you a map, it gives you some insight. From there, you can walk with us, or you can walk alone, just take the information and do nothing else. Or we have lots of workbooks and um in basically books on how to actually follow different ways of being. So we call it the third way, and that covers stoicism, and it covers some of our secret, some of our secret, which you'll have to read methods on how you can turn a problem into a solution. But personalitypeak.com, all the social on the bottom, check it out, messages via there if need be. And I appreciate you for having me on, Avic. It was a great conversation.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Amazing, that's really, really great. So, um, yeah, listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes uh for your easy reference. And also, uh, like I'd say, I mean, that's what for today's episode of Healthy My Healthy Life. And I'd say if this conversation gave you something to sit with about fatherhood, about what you are carrying, about the conversations that uh you have been meaning to have, then please let that become something real today. And as I said, uh his podcast and all his details will be there in the show notes. And please go find uh uh Papa Lens and it's the kind of show that makes you feel less alone in the madness. So with this hope, this is your host again, this is another event in the life. My message is show up, ask the questions, have the conversations, and take care of yourselves. See you next time. Thank you so much.