Why Bad Writing Can Heal

SPEAKER_01 0:00

We were taught that uh good writing is a skill. Uh we were not really taught that bad writing can be a medicine. But the act of putting clumsy, imperfect words on a page can do something for the nervous system that Polish language never quite reaches. So today's guest has spent years quietly making the case for the kind of writing nobody is supposed to admire and what it does for the mind that produces it. So, welcome to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I'm Rasmeed and today my guest is Margaret Brighton, who is here to talk about how poetry, especially what she calls bad poetry, becomes a real tool for mental health, depression, anxiety, resilience, and what her book, How I Understand It, teaches us about creative honesty as a practice. Margaret, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Thank you.

Private Writing And Everyday Truths

SPEAKER_01 1:02

So before we go in, tell me what is the last smallest thing you wrote that nobody else has read. Um, not for publication, just for performance, or just for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Just for me? Oof. I write a lot of things just for me. I'm a therapist, so I actually end up writing a lot of therapy notes. So I do a lot of very structured clinical writing. But when I have uh free time and uh a bit of space, I do like to maybe write a few things to me just to help myself look internally and organize my thoughts a little bit. And I think some of the last poetry that I wrote just for me was about um some of the difficulties of like being vegan in this world. Uh so that's the last thing I wrote.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Okay.

Poetry Is Not For Elites

SPEAKER_01 1:52

And uh I want to start with a misconception, you know, uh, that I think keeps a lot of people logged out of, you know, writing as a tool. Uh the cultural uh picture of poetry is that it is for the gifted, the trained, the people who know that what are they doing. So most people never write a line because they are sure that they will get it wrong. But the version of you that you are teaching is something very different. So tell me what is the part you know, the world is getting wrong about poetry. What is it actually for? Like when it is doing the real job in a person's inner life.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

That's such a great question. I think uh I will answer it by maybe telling a little bit about the story of Hyle I arrived at poetry. So when I was growing up, I thought poetry was so erudite, so elite, so academic, you know, so beautiful, and also so intimidating and so inaccessible to me. And I would see a poem or read a poem that, you know, somebody great wrote and go, Oh my God, I do not understand this. What are they talking about? And it was like a riddle, you know, it's it's like so difficult to understand. And I thought like I was missing something. I would read a poem and go, what am I missing? Why am I not getting this? And so it felt very uh closed off to me. And it also kind of made me feel a little stupid. So I didn't like it. And I kind of stayed away from it for a really long time because of that. And I would go, you know, for different kinds of reading or writing. I would never do a poem. I thought that was, you know, off-putting. Um, but uh as I've

Defining Bad Poetry On Purpose

SPEAKER_00 3:31

gone older and experienced more, and then I had a daughter, and my daughter was very young, and I became suddenly very worried. What if something happens to me? How will my daughter have my voice? How will my daughter um be able to know like the things that I don't know now that she doesn't know? And how can I give these to her? How can I transmit it to her maybe in like an easily accessible way? And I was thinking about this, and what started coming out of me was poetry, which surprised me. It surprised me a lot, actually. But when you think about what poetry is, at its core, it is condensed meaning with heightened emotion, condensed meaning with heightened emotion, and it is very open to interpretation. And there's a lot of um, there's a spectrum of poetry. And I think the poetry that I'm interested in and the poetry that I write and that I read and that I promote, it's not the kind of poetry that's off-putting and that it's so elitist and that nobody can understand. That to me is kind of pointless. The the poetry that I'm interested in is the one that speaks to you and that represents something that's real about your experience, something that's honest, something that's true, something that can maybe stand the test of time. And that kind of poetry doesn't use necessarily, you know, completely sophisticated, inscrutable language. It uses is our everyday language and maybe even in a clumsy way, but what it transmits is something that's very real. And that's the kind of poetry that I use a lot in in therapy, that I use as a therapeutic tool in groups and in individual settings. And it's also the kind of poetry that's in my book, How I Understand It, A Bad Poet's Guide to Mental Health and Resilience. Because what I found is that by using poetry in a therapeutic way to try to access something that's real, that's true, even if you are using clumsy language, it leads to better integration and better self-awareness of what's going on with us internally. And it foments connection, a connection to ourselves, connection to other people around us. And from that connection, it breeds hope. And that's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Right. And when you call something bad poetry, uh, what are you actually pointing at?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

It's not necessarily following some kind of a structure, and it's not probably going to win any big awards. And that's not the point. The point isn't to write something that other people will admire and think is so beautiful. The point is to write something that's real, that's true, that's honest. And a lot of times I think what prevents us from maybe looking at what's real going on inside of us emotionally is because we think it's not beautiful. Um, and so the point is to write something that's a little bad on purpose, so that you can access whatever it is that's truly going on with inside of you without shame. It sort of lifts the burden of having to do something perfectly or having to do something right. That's not what we're doing here. We're taking a look within to see what's real, even if it is a little bad.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

So, like, you know, when someone says that uh they are not creative or they're not a writer, so you know what they're really seeing is uh something, a skill that they really talk about. So it is like about old patterns, old voices, or often old wounds. So about being seen or about being judged. So, what are the patterns underneath that you know you have seen in yourself and in people who finally give themselves the permission to write or express themselves to through anything, through through painting, through writing, or anything that, you know, brings happiness to them?

What People Unlock Through Writing

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I think that a lot of times people can use creative writing and creative expressive writing like poetry to tap into things that they normally wouldn't say out loud. Um, so anything that is particularly difficult or confusing, a lot of times people have a hard time talking about it verbally or going to a therapist and talking about it verbally because um they're afraid they don't have the right words, it's gonna be misunderstood or it's gonna come out and it's not gonna make any sense. And, you know, they're probably right. The human experience is very complex. And this fear of not being able to do it properly is a big inhibitor for people. It keeps people stuck and not being able to fully process through their experiences then. So what I like about bad poetry is it gives you a way to kind of get it out, even if it is imperfect, even if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's okay because it's art. And that kind of makes it freeing, it makes it okay. And I am always surprised, I am always surprised at what people have been carrying inside that they've been afraid to talk about or that they haven't talked about for whatever reason. And writing makes it safe to do that.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yes. And uh, when was the first time that you noticed this pattern in yourself?

From Personal Poems To Therapy Tool

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Like after you started uh writing poetry, when was the first time you thought, like, yeah, this is the time I should do something like this?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Oh, you know, I really I became surprised when I started writing the poetry that became this book. And the more I wrote my own poetry, the more I thought, wow, I should really introduce this to my clients because it's so cathartic and it's such a great way of processing things and such a great way to kind of get out of just one narrow perspective and start appreciating different perspectives about your experiences. And I started slowly introducing it to um the groups and the individuals that I work with in my therapy settings, and the response was so overwhelmingly positive. And then I started doing a little bit more research on it, and I thought, um, well, I mean, I can't be the first person who's discovered poetry. So there must be other, you know, great uh foundational researchers on this, and there were. And one of them that really stands out to me is Nicolas Maza, and he wrote an actual textbook about it called Poetry Therapy. And I don't know why this book isn't more popular, but it really establishes poetry uh as an evidence-based practice tool that therapists can use in a setting. And then that kind of emboldened me to want to use it more. And so the more that I looked into it, the more that I actually practiced it and started using it, the more I started seeing really positive results of people being able to kind of come out of their shell, talk about difficult experiences that maybe they weren't able to talk about before, and um break out of things like depression, help calm their anxieties. And it was just so useful. And I thought, why not more? And the poetry that I ended up accumulating that became my book, it was originally intended just to be for my daughter. But once I had written enough poems and I saw kind of what they were, I thought, oh my gosh, this doesn't have to be just for my immediate family. Maybe there's something bigger here. And I wanted the whole world to know about

Trauma Integration Through Contained Language

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it.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

So and Margaret, if someone is in a depressive stretch or in the middle of an anxiety spike, uh, where does poetry actually do its work in those moments? Like not the abstract case, the real cases. Like, what does it look like, sound like, or feel like in the body of someone who is using it as a tool on the days they need it the most?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

I think it feels like um kind of a release or a cathartic integration. So I'll uh maybe give you an example. I work with a lot of people who have suffered extensive trauma in their life and have had really traumatic experiences, maybe have PTSD because of them. And one of the big things that happens with trauma is that there's this kind of fragmentation that happens internally, and it's hard to then feel like a whole person because there are now parts of you that are kind of split off a little bit and that feel very unsafe. So when you think of trauma, think fragmentation, think very unsafe. And I think what poetry helps does is it helps create a window for a person to start understanding what their experience was in a safe, very contained kind of way. Um, language provides containment, writing it down kind of helps it get out of that abstractness of your mind and it helps you create something more tangible with it. And then on top of that, you're creating something that's kind of artistic. So there's this art component to it that again creates this layer of safety because how could art ever be wrong? And what people end up doing is they take these parts of themselves that feel very fragmented, very disconnected, and they're able to connect them on a page through creative writing with poetry, especially. And things that maybe they felt like weren't okay that were contradictions that they had inside. In a poem, it's okay because a poem can hold ambiguity, a poem can hold contradictions. And when people have written it, there's that's one thing. Uh, but then when they are able to maybe share that with another person or with a safe person or in a group setting, and then they receive validation that their experience of what they wrote was actually really cool, that helps people feel appreciated. And then they start appreciating themselves and their experiences a little bit differently. So that helps people feel less anxiety about their experiences, it helps people feel a sense of validation, it helps create a sense of release, and it helps create a sense of um catharsis and integration.

A Five Minute Kitchen Table Practice

SPEAKER_01 13:26

So uh if someone is listening and uh had just said to themselves that we're not a good writer, so go to a bigger college or temporary version of the practice that you would hand them so-called version, something that someone can do tomorrow or right now, uh, at the kitchen table or in their bedroom with the notebook on their hand or something. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

So one thing that I would definitely recommend uh if you're if you're new to this, is I actually have a free poetry guide that you can just go to my website and download that has um prompts, five different prompts. So you can have a whole week's worth of poetry that you can make with explanations of how to use the prompts and how to set yourself up to write um a good poem. But the bottom line is you don't need a lot of time to do this. And I'll just say what my website is really quickly in case people want to go right now and download it. It's SageInsightherapy.com. Sageinsightherapy.com. And the page within that website is the book. Right at the top, you'll see the bad poet's permission slip. Um, but if you're at home and you don't even have time to download that right now, what I would recommend is this maybe take about five to ten minutes just to yourself, and you can be, you know, in a place that you feel more or less comfortable, but uninterrupted. Like put your cell phone away, um, make sure the kids are, you know, with the other parent or something, and just take five to ten minutes to yourself and start by doing some breathing to maybe help calm your nervous system. So some deep, slow breathing, just a few deep breaths. Have your pencil and your pen with you, and maybe start by asking yourself a question. A question like, what have I not said out loud? And see what comes out. There should be no expectations, no pressure, just you and a blank page and your feelings trying to write something, and it doesn't even have to make sense. And I think you'll be surprised by the results. Give yourself about five, ten minutes to do this, and then if uh you write something that you really like, I'd love to hear about it.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yes.

Handling Perfectionism And The Inner Critic

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Uh and uh the last big question now, uh so because perfectionism does not give up easily, so there are weeks where you start writing badly on purpose and then the inner critic shows up, you know, halfway through and tries to make it good. So how do you keep that practice honest when the part of you that wants it to be impressive shows back up? Or how do you stay in the bad poetry without the critic, you know, running the show?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Hmm. I mean, I always like to ask the question, what is the function of this? So I would probably ask, oh, what is the function of this um side of me that wants everything to be perfect right now? What is the function of that? And maybe speaking to that side of you and saying, okay, well, you know, I don't necessarily have to show this to anybody, and I'm doing it just for me, and there is no wrong way to do this. Who am I trying to impress? What does this need to be perfect for? The point is, it is gonna be bad, and I'm doing that on purpose, and it's gonna be okay if I try it. And if that doesn't work, just um tell yourself you're doing a little experiment. You know what? It might be bad. It's okay. It's an experiment. It doesn't have to be perfect. You're trying this out. Maybe you've never done it before, and you're just gonna see what this is about and it's an experiment. And I think getting into the mindset of it's an experiment can really be helpful because it takes the pressure off. I think getting into the mindset of, I don't actually have to show this to anybody. It's just for me, that kind of helps to take the pressure off. And if the pressure is still there, I would maybe try to ask um yourself, you know, why is this not okay? Why is this really not okay? Um, why can't I just get into this mindset and see where that takes you? Because I think it might take you to an interesting place. I think there's always maybe some kind of a fear that other people will judge us, or maybe that we will judge ourselves. And the whole point of bad poetry is we're lifting that judgment. We're we're saying, okay, I hear you inner critic, and I kind of don't care right now. I'm being a little bad anyway.

Where To Find The Book And Guide

SPEAKER_01 18:03

And if someone listening right now is going through something heavy and they feel like, you know, uh that they don't have any language for it, or they don't have anything that they can do right now. So what do you want them to hear slowly before they pick up a pen?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

If they feel like they're not good writers, I would say, good. I think the best poems that I've ever read are from people who would say that they're terrible writers. And I think that there's something um that gets to be a little bit more raw, a little bit more honest when people aren't trying to write to impress. I think it's a good thing. And I think that these are the people who actually make the best writers, they just don't know it yet.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

So, Margaret, uh, where can our listeners find you and your book?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Oh, I'm so excited about my book. It's taken years to get to this point. It took years to write the poetry, and one thing that I would like to mention about the book before I I tell you where to find me is that it's not just poetry and it's not just, you know, bad poetry or about me, Margaret. It's poetry that I've written that I really wanted to pass on to my originally my own family, but to everybody I know who might benefit from mental health frameworks. So different kinds of perspectives, mindsets. The mental health frameworks that I spent years studying in grad school, I wove them into the poetry that I wrote. Um, so you're getting something that's maybe a little artful, maybe a little entertaining, but that also has some nuggets of wisdom from mental health that I've acquired throughout the years and not just textbook wisdom, but from actually working as a therapist and the kinds of things that I've seen over and over and over again. So the book has information and poetry about things like um difficult families and boundary setting and codependency and attachment issues and going through something terrible like a divorce or a miscarriage, all those kinds of things around the book. So it's really something that I've written that I hope will appeal to a very wide audience. I think it might be especially a little bit more appealing to women, but I think it will also be appealing to men who want to understand women a little bit better and also for themselves. Um, so the place where you can find my book is um on Amazon or on Barnes and Noble. Um, right now the pre-sales are up on Amazon, but the book officially launches September 1st. So come September 1st, you should be able to find it at, you know, major retail outlets like Amazon or Barnes Noble online. And you can also reach me, send me inquiries, send me information, maybe send me a poem that you wrote through my website, SageInsightherapy.com. And again, you can find more information about my book and that free poetry guide to help get you started at SageInsight Therapy.com forward slash the book. And my Instagram handle is at SageInsight Therapy.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Thank you so much, Margaret. Uh, and to everyone listening, the line you are afraid to write is often the line that has been waiting for you to write it. So we will see you soon on the next episode of Healthy Mind, Healthy Life.