When Avoidance Becomes A Prison

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Sometimes the thing keeping us stuck doesn't look like a crisis. It looks like putting something off for another day, avoiding a little conversation, staying in bed a little longer, or ignoring our body and the signs it's showing us. Telling ourselves we will start tomorrow. And slowly, without realizing it, avoidance can become a way of life. Today, we are talking about what happens when avoidance stops protecting us and starts imprisoning us. More importantly, we are talking about how we begin to move again, not through shame or perfection, but through small honest acts of responsibility. Welcome to Healthy Mind, Healthy Life. I am Srimada, and today I am joined by Alexander Ostroman. Alexander, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Thank you so much for having me on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you. And listeners, Alexander is a psychotherapist, writer, husband, father, and the founder of Ostroman Psychotherapy. He primarily works uh with people, and uh he is uh he's working with men who feel stuck in patterns of avoidance, emotional lumbing, procrastination, drift, and quite self-betrayal. And he's also the author of Quit Evading, a therapist's field manual for men in drift. So, listeners, we will also be discussing about that. And Alexander, it's really good to have you here. We I hope we have a great time.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I uh I believe we will have a great time, and again, thank you for having me on the show. I'm

Fear Behind Procrastination

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very excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Absolutely. So, Alex, I would uh begin with something like uh, you know, when uh when we describe avoidance, it's not just simply laziness, but it's often seen as a protective strategy. So when someone is procrastinating continuously, withdrawing themselves, numbing themselves, or telling themselves that they will do something later on, what might actually be happening under these these patterns?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Oh, the biggest thing I find is fear. There's a lot of fear behind this stuff and a feeling of being overwhelmed by the challenge. So, and then self-criticism enters the picture. So fear paralyzes us when we try to address the problem. We look at it and see an entire mountain, and then we beat ourselves up afterwards, and that causes avoidance and escapism to become the main ways of trying to address something that's threatening or scary.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Absolutely. And uh, why do you think that we are so quick to judge that behavior as laziness or maybe lack of discipline, even at times?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Oh, because if it's laziness or lack of discipline, it's a much easier problem to solve. If somebody's just being lazy or needs to develop discipline, that's easy. That we can do in a couple weeks. Dealing with major fears, perceptions of how you perceive yourself, how you think about yourself, how you strategize to deal with problems, that's a much longer time uh process and takes a lot more energy.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Absolutely, and that just makes so much sense. So, you know, when um you have already dealt with people, you have dealt with men who are uh dealing with this sort of a problem. So, have you noticed any particular patterns or maybe uh common reasons behind people doing the scene?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Oh, absolutely. The first thing I've noticed, and this also happened with myself, is nobody just ends up at a place where they didn't realize it. Over time, people are able to kind of track the path. You go from A to B, B to C, C to D, and so on until you end up in a spot where you didn't realize I didn't want to be here. So that's the first thing I've noticed. The other thing is the overwhelming themselves piece I was talking about previously. They look at the whole, you know, mountain. I think one of my clients used the term like how do you eat an elephant? And it's you eat it one bite at a time, where they will try to tackle the whole problem and then fail and then beat themselves up, where a lot of the time we must we have to start really small with their work.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Absolutely. And um, since we are talking about healthy mind,

How People Drift Into Avoidance

SPEAKER_00 4:30

healthy life, you know, um, how do we bring this into our everyday life? Because it's so very connected. So, how does chronic avoidance show up in our everyday life, maybe in our actions, or maybe signs that our body is trying to show us?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

So the most obvious thing are those small little tasks that could take five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes max. Heck, some of those tasks take a minute, like making your bed, but it's those things that we say, I'll do later. If you find yourself, well, it's understandable. If you're in the middle of doing something, clearly you're not procrastinating. But if you're sitting down and you're looking at something that you know you need to handle and you're saying, I'll do it later, that's usually a sign. It we see it in those ways. Um, that little voice that we have in our head that says, I really need to work on that. And then we try to distract ourselves from it. It shows up like that daily. And it always starts with that voice and identifying when do I have that voice that says I'll do it later. And then instead of allowing that to be something that leads to procrastination, that being a sign, oh, that means I'm gonna act on this right now, and then doing so. Um, that starts to create the relief through action, not relief through avoidance and escapism, which is very

Spotting Avoidance In Daily Life

SPEAKER_01 5:45

healthy and needs to be practiced daily.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Absolutely. And I think it's safe to say, since you mentioned that identification is the first step to put an end to this. Say we consider that first step. What would you say is the second step?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

The second step is coming up with a plan. If we identify that there's a problem, we step into problem solving. A lot of times, and in particular with men, they start to worry when they have something uh going on with them emotionally. They think, oh my God, what's wrong with me? Why am I feeling this way? I'm not supposed to. I'm a man, I'm not supposed to have these feelings. I try to work with my male clients to say, well, this is a sign that there's a problem going on, not a problem with who you are, there's a problem in your life right now. And let's break into problem solving mode. So once we've identified, let's go to the drawing board and let's start figuring out some strategies that might help us work through this.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Absolutely. Now, Alex, since you brought up the context of your male uh clients, so how do you think this differs for males and females? Maybe certain reasons and patterns.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

So I primarily, you know, I'll be speaking from a male, so I won't be able to speak entirely from my female clients, but I do have a few female clients, although I do predominantly work for with men. Uh, the big thing I've noticed is a lot of the men want to, they want the space

From Self Criticism To Problem Solving

SPEAKER_01 7:10

to talk about their emotions, just like my female clients, but they really want to jump into taking action much more quickly. My female clients are fantastic at taking action, and they have done work that blows my mind, and they have been some of my most successful clients. But there is a large emotional processing piece that needs to go on too. A man wants to come in, he's gonna talk about it, and then he wants a homework assignment that's gonna help him feel better. So that would be one of the big distinctive pieces. Um, the other piece would be empowerment. I think everybody needs to feel strong, but my male clients in particular, when they start to feel strong and capable, they feel that they can address these issues. There was one individual I was talking to this week who's been struggling with social anxiety. And his big come-to, you know, moment was knowing I'm struggling with this social anxiety, but I'm gonna push forward. And every time I push through it, I feel stronger because it didn't stop me. That became a big part of his healing process.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Absolutely. And it's fantastic to know that it differs this way. And uh, you know, if someone is listening right now, regardless of whether they are a male or a female, if they know that they are avoiding something important and they feel completely overwhelmed by the idea of changing the life or maybe going out of this pattern, how do you suggest the begin? I mean, having uh identification and planning, definitely, but any other step?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Sure. The most concrete step, and this is always the first homework assignment my clients

Men Women And Action Bias

SPEAKER_01 8:45

get, is make your bed. Now, if you're already making your bed or your situation is different than that, it becomes something small. Maybe it's clean the dishes, maybe it's you know, sweep uh, you know, the entrance way, but it's something small and tangible. Something that you can look at and say, hey, I did that, that looks nice now, or that's more aesthetically pleasing, or that was put into order for me. So it's always what is one small step I can do? If the task you're handling seems too big or overwhelming, divide it in half. And then if that still is too big, divide it in half again. I've had situations where somebody was nervous about going to work and it was literally, what's the first thing I need to do? Well, I need to get my left leg out of the bed and then my right leg out of the bed, and then I need to wash my face all the way to, and then I have to put my uniform on with my left leg in this uniform first and my right leg in second, but break it down into as small of steps as necessary. That way we uh anxiety loves to overwhelm us with the whole pie at once. One small step, and if that's too big, divide it in half.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Absolutely. And Alex, I'll find my delving to something else because the pattern you mentioned aligns a lot with uh compulsive disorder tendencies. So is that is that something got to do with that as well?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Um, I definitely do see, I do work with a lot of people with OCD and uh compulsion disorders. Um, sometimes, interestingly enough,

The Make Your Bed Method

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I will try to have my clients with a compulsion disorder shift to one of these healthier behaviors to give that desire to do something, but it to be something effective. Um, it does relate as far as the impulse to do. So it does overlap in that way. Uh the big difference would be it's leading to a productive human being where a disorder is it's been taken to a point where it's too much of an extreme. We all feel sad at a certain point. It's only when it hits a particular level it becomes depression. We all worry about things, but it's only at a particular point it becomes anxiety. So does it become compulsive? Yes, but that's also part of what we're working with. Now, as you said, if it interferes with somebody's ability in their relationships, work, life, because they didn't make the bed that day, we might have a little bit of a compulsion problem or disorder at that point.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

So Lulan, that's that's a lot of clarity and distinction to look at it that way. And uh, Alex, you have lived through your own period of reconstruction and you have spent years helping people rebuild this. So, how do you think taking responsibility actually looks like when someone has spent a long time avoiding life?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

So, yes, um, I from my own experience, let alone my work, it is one small step you're proud of, coupled with the idea of you might not see the whole picture now. You might have to simply know that you're doing something slightly differently than you did before. And having faith in that, having faith that because I'm doing something a little bit differently and I took this new step, things might change. And then eventually you're able to look back and say, instead of where am I going, hey, this used to be really hard for me, and now I do this every day or every week. I wonder what will happen if I start doing this thing that I'm having a hard time with. This will eventually become something I do daily or weekly. So just knowing that it's doing something different than what you were doing previously, and having faith that doing something different than what you were doing previously will lead to a very different

OCD Overlap And Healthy Compulsion

SPEAKER_01 12:20

direction or a different place in life at one point.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

So that's a great place to start. And since you mentioned repeatedly that it's always in the small steps that we uh should acknowledge the uh I mean the bigger change follow automatically. So uh, you know, but what happens when someone is trying to change, but then again falls back to the old patterns and feels like they have failed again because change cannot be very linear and constant.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. Change is not linear, it can't be linear, so we should almost expect uh stepbacks, uh fallbacks. I use, you know, you take two steps forward, you take one step back, you're still a step ahead. It's normal, it's gonna happen. There will be times that you take two steps forward and three steps back, that happens too. But persistency and effort over time will lead to consistency. So it has to just be part of our understanding. That's part of the process. Um, when I work with individuals with substance abuse, relapse is part of the equation. There's many times that people relapse with the substance or alcohol or something before they get to that point where they really are clean.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Absolutely. And I think uh that's the whole point that avoidance can feel like relief in the moment, but

Responsibility Faith And Small Wins

SPEAKER_00 13:40

over time it can quietly move us away from the life we actually want. And um, as you say, that it always begins with one honest and small action. Thank you so much for having this conversation, Alexander. It was really great knowing your insights. And uh, for someone listening, um, who knows uh they have been avoiding something important in their life, what message would you leave for him or her?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Sure. Um, the fact that you're willing to take on this challenge shows a significant amount of courage. Take one small step, be proud of yourself for the small step you took, do it again the next day and the day after that, and eventually this will become normal and you'll take a bigger step. Do the same thing again, and then you'll take a bigger step. And if you keep doing that, your life will change.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Absolutely. Listeners, I hope this conversation is something you will keep in your mind, you will uh I mean, keep it uh in your mind and have the actions implemented. And I think this matters because we need to remind ourselves that uh being stuck doesn't necessarily mean we will be stuck there forever. We can definitely make one small change at a time. Thank you so much for having this conversation, Alex. If any of our listeners want to connect with you or learn more about your work, your book,

Setbacks Relapse And Staying The Course

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where do you suggest they find you?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

So the two best places to find me are alexanderosterman.com. That's my website. Now you'll be able to read more about the book. Uh, the book should be hopefully coming out in the very near future. Um, you'll see some of my therapeutic work there, and I have a couple of free resources for listeners. I have some of the therapeutic worksheets under the worksheet section for any listener. You can download them. They're PDFs, they're entirely free. They touch on some of the stuff we talked about today, as well as some other topics. I also have, again, free, the anti-evasion starter kit. Uh, taking those small steps, this kit is there to help you take the steps for an entire week and help you see how did you feel before you took the step or did the thing and how you felt afterwards. It also helps encourage people to reward themselves afterwards, not in a grandiose reward. It could be something as simple as a pat on the back, but it encourages the reward system for doing the small thing. Uh, the other place to look is my Instagram, which is just at Alexander Osterman. I post weekly there either information about new stuff on the website or simple reels going over topics to help people with particular challenges.

Resources And Closing Message

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Thank you so much, Alexander. And to our listeners, I would definitely recommend you go have a look. Check the website, download the shit, and I'm sure it will be of much help to you all. Thank you, Alex, for joining us on Healthy Mind, Healthy Life.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Thank you so much for having me on the show. I really enjoyed our discussion.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Absolutely. And to our listeners, please take care of your mind, take care of your body, and most importantly, do not abandon yourself in the moments when life feels a little difficult. We will meet you in the next conversation. Till then. Take care.